Mariana De La Vega is the founder of the Consciousness Lab. The lab explores fundamental questions of Qigong, like, why do we practice? What do we know for sure and what do we really want? Today she shares the fascinating insights with us. My name is Torsten Lueddecke and this is the Wisdom Qigong Podcast.
All right, everyone. Welcome to the Wisdom Qigong podcast. I've got Mariana De La Vega with us today. It's the second time we meet. And Mariana, the last time we, you introduced the, uh, Consciousness Lab to us, and we are going to explore this a little more. Can you just quickly, you know, give us, um, uh, an introduction in what the Consciousness Lab. Actually is, please?
Yeah. Yeah, sure. Hi everybody. It's so nice to be here. Thank you so much, Dornin. Um, the Consciousness Lab was an initiative that, um, that started just like this exercise of reading, part of the theory, reflecting on it, meditating on the theory, but not just Zhineng Qigong theory. Also, uh, you know. The background that Zhineng Qigong has, like Taoism or Buddhism, some Confucianism, some really, really, uh, ancient texts and, you know, some of the revisited versions, uh, interpreted by.
Modern and contemporary masters and just trying to meditate on those texts, not so, not so much to understand the theory, but just connect with the, uh, profound and deep message and try to bring that not only to the practice of the methods, but actually to real life. An expression that I, um, I found useful is, okay, now we have all these explanation, and how do I bring that to my relationship with my teenage daughter?
Right? Um, how can I eat this? Is, is it cold? Is it hot? I mean, um, so that was like The first intention of the Consciousness Lab. We've been meeting for over a year now. We've reviewed a lot of texts, and I decided to wait for a little while before reviewing Zhineng Qigong texts because they're not so easy to read.
So we had all these background, but the first question we asked ourselves ourselves was. Why do I practice? what am I expecting? why I do anything in my life? That was like our first question. And of course everybody can answer something different. You know, in Zhineng Qigong it's really common that people, um, approach these practice from a healing, uh, body illnesses point of view.
So that's like, um, the common ground for most of us. But we come to understand that Zhineng Qigong is not just method, just a series of methods to make qi and blood flow well in the body and, you know, recover functions and, uh, get rid of illness. It's so much more than that. So we first, um, made this question, um, why do we practice?
Why do we, what are we expecting from this practice? And it was a very interesting question. And we keep, um, as asking this over and over and over again, throughout the year, throughout our, our meetings. And then, well, we started, you know, bringing consciousness into a lab. So, so if I understand that correctly, you are not tackling this question from an analytical mind mm-hmm. Where I'll say, okay, I wanna heal my knee and, uh, I want this in my life, and so on you, because you said you are meditating over these questions. So really by meditating over them and just asking them over and over and over.
You are kind of surpassing your conscious mind and allowing to whatever is deep inside you, uh, from your true self, uh, to pop up and, um, and become visible. Is that, is that what you're doing with these, uh, with this practice? Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, it, it's, yeah, no, the, the first, um, impulse when you, you get asked these question is, of course I wanna heal, answer, or I wanna, but deep down, what are you looking for?
And we, we came to this word, um, we said, okay, what we all want is happiness. We just wanna be happy and. If we delve deeper into this word, we find that we just want to stop suffering. And obviously we connected a lot with Buddhism in this, in this sense, because Buddhism is, you know, this research, this deep investigation into what suffering is.
So we started with that and we started meditating and then when. We came across the Zhineng Qigong texts. We started with paranormal abilities, and then, um, we practiced some of the methods, but we focus mainly on what paranormal abilities are aiming at, is to understand that the limits that you have in your mind are self-imposed limits.
The mind has no limits. Limits. You only have the limits of your beliefs. So we were not interested in, you know, moving things with mind or, you know, um, uh, developing some clearance or any of those specifically. But it was just like, you know, start breaking those limits. and just realizing, just having this insight that what is the mind, the mind is what you believe it to be.
So, um, then we started, uh, reviewing Dr. Pang's Hunyuan Entirety Theory. And it was funny because, um, we, we, we just caught up in, in this trap of. What is Hunyuan Qi, what is Hunyuan Si? What is Hun Yua? What is, so People started, you know, intellect, intellectually trying to understand the book. So we decided to make a stop. Like halt. Okay everybody, this is not the intention of the Consciousness Lab.
So what are we gonna do now? Let's work. Let's go back to basics. And we did this very interesting exercise. What is the only thing in your life that you are certain about? What is the only thing? So we started meditating on that and we based this practice in, um, I think he's German, I'm not sure. Or from Austria.
Uh, Bernardo Kastrup. Maybe you've heard of him. He's the scientist, you know, consciousness scientist. He said, if we, you know, set aside just for a while, all the concepts, all the words, because we have to agree on, on a meaning to start using the big words like consciousness, like universe like, and we can, you know, waste a lot of energy, a lot of time just trying to agree on a definition.
But what if we just put these words on the side just for a walk? And just dwell and immerse yourself in the experience of now. So the only thing that is certain in your life is that you are having an experience. There is an experience for not going to describe the experience. Because the experience is made up of all these elements, you know, via sensory organs, information, the feelings, the emotions, the thoughts, the concepts.
Let's just say there's an experience. We don't have to agree on this because it's evident for, uh, all of us. There is an experience. Life is an experience. And the second thing that is automatically understood is that if there's an experience, there is something, having the experience something or someone, we're just not going to go into the concepts of consciousness, mind, self.
Um, so. If you review what you call your life experiences, you can connect with some memories, and if I ask you, um, just connect with an experience you had as, as a child, a memory is going to come up. Just pop up and then connect with an experience when you had, when you were 25 years old, and then an experience you had when you were 30.
And et cetera, et cetera. The content of the experience changes all the time because the experience by definition is that it's a process, a changing, but what, what was constant? What was always present in the experience that something. That perceives or has the experience. So then we returned to Dr. Pang's book and we found so much meaning in words and in phrases that were, you know, like, we don't understand this. And we came across these one very special phrase, um, I'm just gonna read it, that says, humans knowledge about the world of nature is in essence. The natural world have enriched this stage of knowing itself.
So what the Entirety theory talks about is that not only everything in the universe is connected, it's just that it's just one thing, and that one thing is experience. You cannot separate. The experiencer from the experience, the experiencer is the experience. And when you realize this, it's just the universe realizing itself through the experience.
So what happens, what, what we've seen in the Consciousness Lab is what happens when you realize that illness? Sadness, anxiety, um, longing, searching, depression or, uh, love, whatever is just an experience. What changes in your life when you just realize it is an experience unfolding? And that the experiencer that that is yourself is just that the experience in itself.
So it's a very interesting practice or meditation because it's natural detachment from duality. You no longer say, this is good, this is bad, this is correct, this is incorrect. It's just experience. It's just the universe experiencing itself. the Consciousness Lab has a life of its own.
So it's taking this, this curse, this, um, this path because. I don't know if you agree with me, but we, we live in, in a time where consciousness language is everywhere. We see it in books, we see it in social media, et cetera, et cetera. And one of the phrases that we hear a lot that we repeat ourselves all the time is the answers are within.
So we start looking within, but we don't know what within is. So you say where? Inside my body, inside my mind. Inside of where. So the next question should be, um, what is the body, what is the mind? But naturally you get like. No answer. And you, you get that this feeling that you can go deeper than that. And the one question that stops the searching is, who am I?
What am I? When I say I, when I say I want happiness, when I say I am suffering, when I say I am. A woman, when I say, uh, I am sick, what is the "I"?
And I think what Dr. Pang, um, is saying through these books is that, um, these teachings is that you can see yourself in everything. Everything is you. This is an entirety. So when you say Let's go within, you don't have to go into the body. You can take a look at the universe because you are taking a look at yourself when you, when you see everything else.
So that's, you know, the way we're taking with this Consciousness Lab. It's been so interesting.
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That was so beautiful. Uh, Mariana usually I try to summarize and rephrase in my own words, but I don't think I can do that because it's been, if you've really taken us through a beautiful journey here. Um, and, um, and so I was listening in awe, and I suppose our audience will have done the same and they might just go back and rewind, uh, to listen to it again.
Uh, so I think, yeah. Um. Maybe we can just dive into a few ideas that you presented and, uh, you started off with, you know, with, um, focusing on experience because you said this is the only thing you can be certain of. Now, even if I see a mountain, so the mountain is already my, interpretation really, you know, the experience said that.
Yeah. That there's some light coming into through my eyes and I can e experience something. So, so, uh, basically the experience is the raw data before my mind kicks in and comes with any interpretation or any judgment. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And from that point, you, you moved on by, by, by saying, okay, so. There is no distinct, no difference between the experience and the experiencer because it is the, the experience in itself is something that is happening and that is me or at that moment experiencing whatever there is.
So you, we cannot say, I am having an experience. Yeah. It is really the same thing. And, um. So I'm, I'm right till, till this point, right? Um, but I follow you. Yeah. Okay. Good, good, good. And then, because everything is a, an experience, uh, you came to the conclusion that basically my experience is just the universe expressing itself through me.
Yes. So this is all that it is. And if I don't go into the judgments, if I don't go into the, um, interpretations, that means, um, now the, the initial question where you started with like, I just want to be happy, or I, I want no suffering. This kind of disappears because with, if it's just the experience and I don't put the labels on it.
Then these things become meaningless. Uh, I mean like real meaningless in a good sense. Mm-hmm. That is doesn't mean like, oh my God, I have to be so sad, or I have to be this, or, uh, this is so bad, uh, or I'm suffering. It's, you, you call it detachment from, from the, uh, from the suffering. Right. Yeah. It's, it's a detachment from these opposites, this dualistic view.
Yes, Dr. Pang says, um, what human consciousness, human mind has made is, uh, a world of opposites. And the basic opposite is subject and object. So we view ourselves as the subjects experiencing objects or, um, knowing objects. So if we take a look at modern science, that's what science does. It's just trying to understand the universe.
From this distinction. The subject is observing a lot of objects and trying to explain these objects. So Dr. Pang says this has been very harmful for human beings because this separation, it's is an illusion. So, uh, the separation has caused, first of all to separate ourselves from nature and trying to dominate nature uh, in second place.
What this has does is separating ourselves from society. So society has, um. Gradually, uh, walked in the path of individualization. So you have to look within yourself to be happy yourself. So you have to do what you have to, to make yourself happy. And it is your responsibility to be happy. It's your responsibility to be safe, to be, uh, healthy.
And we're part of a society. It's the responsibility of all the parts of society to make us happy, to make us healthy. And that, uh, alongside with being one with nature. So, um, we, Dr. Pang says these opposites, um, just. Making our starting point that there's a subject interacting with objects.
It's just a partial view and it's, um, and it's the root of suffering when, when we come to understand that subject and object are the same thing, are an entirety. And how do we do this? He says, well, through the practice of the methods, the first thing is that you start understanding that your body, your life activity is an entirety of Gene, qi and Chen, body, energy and mind or spirit.
There is no independence of these elements. We're just using language to explain three different expressions of the same thing, which is Hunyuan Qi yes, but there's nobody apart from energy and apart from mind or spirit. It's just a way of explaining it. So the first thing is that the methods, uh, are so well designed, have so much wisdom behind the movements, behind the sequences, that what we're doing is just integrating or reconciliating, you know, um, these three elements.
There is no movement, there is no life activity in what we call the body if there is no energy and information working at the same time. So we start understanding that, but then we have to move on to Dr. Pangs' paranormal abilities. We start, uh, making hun we start understanding that every time. We have an experience of what we call an object, and that object includes the body.
When we have this experience, we're merging and transforming. Um, so we tend to identify so much with the body that we say me and we touch the body, you know, and really the body is just an experience. Of this thing we call Experiencer or I, or consciousness. And then the third stage described by Dr. Pang is when the subject and the object become one, that is when consciousness becomes its own sub, uh, object.
So when consciousness realizes itself. Then we get to what we call enlightenment or awakening, and we realize that there's no separation and everything is just the universe knowing itself or consciousness, um, expressing itself through everything. So there's no inside, no outside. There's no universe outside, out there very far.
But when, because when we think about universe, most of us first think about stars, galaxies, planets. No, no universes, everything. Um, there was a, a very, a beautiful insight when one of the teachers. Explain that the character in, in Chinese for universe is time and space united. So it's all the, all of the time, all of the space.
That's universe. So, um, when we returned and we started reading again these several passages of the book, there was a very different understanding. It was. Just, we're just experiencing the book and not just trying to understand the concepts because it's so easy. Hmm. To let your mind think and let your mind, uh, believe that if you accumulate a lot of concepts and explanations and you start talking with all this language, then you've evolved in your happiness searching.
It's just a very big trap. I think we will, uh, encounter sometime or other in this searching, but um, but there has to be like a stop of the searching and when you realize there is no person, no body searching, the search has to stop. This is it.
Now I have to challenge you here a little, because initially when we started you said that uh, one of the reasons you founded the Consciousness Lab is, uh, that you wanted to find ways how to implement these insights into your daily life. And, uh, we've been talking about this beautiful, uh, uh, ideas that you've presented, which Yeah.
Is the reality. So I, I think ideas is the wrong is the wrong word because you, I think you, you hit the nail on the, on the, uh, how do you say it, on the head. Um, uh, but is there any, uh, for us now on the, on the pre, on the daily, daily way, uh, basis, because we don't want to go back now to our daily life thinking, wow, this was a beautiful conversation, and then move on.
As we, as we always do, uh, you said that you gotta, you know, look into how can I implement in my daily life with my teenage daughter? That was your example. Mm-hmm. So how do you use these insights in your daily life? Uh, Mariana ? Well, um, first of all, um, I, I don't mean this to be like, uh, you know, a formula or a, a set of steps.
But what I, what I do is just, um, notice the resistance to the experience because there's only experience and the experience. It's, it's all there is. And when you resist to the experience, you create this illusion of suffering. so we all have a lot of experiences if, if we want to, you know, fragment them or separate them.
It's just one experience after all. But if you wanna say, okay, I'm having this conversation with a friend that's an experience and you don't like, your mind starts saying. Um, what, what my friend is saying, it's hurtful, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then you notice the resistance. the resistance to the experience of consciousness being with itself.
So you notice like this distinction, I'm a subject observing, or. Even trying to control an object in this case, another person. But when you realize it's just the experience is everything there is and there is no me and you, it's just experience and you let go of the resistance. I would say that's good enough.
I don't know if that's, you know, complete. Um. Or joy or, but it, it really changes the way I live when I just right notice the resistance to the experience. the practical application is not so much, oh, I learned something. I will deal with my daughter in a different way. That's not what it is.
It is more because of the insight, your ways of being changes, and you show up. 'cause you are a different person with that insight and with this level of consciousness. And that changes everything in the relationship with your daughter or with people around you or with all of your life. Right. Yeah. And then, um, you start noticing that sometimes there's anger, sometimes there's frustration, some that's the experience.
But when you resist anger and you resist frustration, you create something else. So, um, the first step is just noticing the resistance. And even resist the impulse to judge yourself because you are resisting the experience. It's just, hey, relax the resistance to whatever what is, is. And then what happens is that you start reacting differently.
What I've noticed with, um, some friends, some people around me, my parents, uh, my daughter, uh, is that they say you've been reacting less and less to some things. But it's not my intention to not react. My intention is just noticing the resistance to the experience. So it's, it's a different approach.
Yes. Because in the first one it, you wanna change yourself, but then again, you are identifying yourself with a character, with a personality, with, uh, so you make all these efforts to be a good person and you are always a work in progress, and it's never good enough. 'cause there's always this comparison. I could, I could do better, I could be more compassionate, I could be more generous, I could be more kind.
Um, when you simply notice the resistance to what is automatically the subject becomes the object of observation. You really get to observe. Because all the time what we're doing is we're resisting to what is we're resisting, to what we call suffering, but we're all also resisting to pleasure ending.
I mean, if you're having a really good time, a really happy moment, you are resisting by having the idea. This should last longer. What should I do to make this repeat again and again? Uh, so you are with friends and you're having a good time, and then you start, oh, we should meet more often. Uh, let's all, um, bring out our calendars.
When can we meet again and repeat this? Uh, good time. That's a kind of resistance, so you're having a good time. Just resist. You, you tend to resist to the idea that this will also end. So the noticing of the resistance is, um, I mean the step or the practice, if we can call it that. That right now has given me a lot of insight.
Hmm. And I, I, I, I love that approach because it's so different from how most people go through life when we have, we, we have, we're trying to enforce rules upon us, like you said. Okay, be more kind. Don't be so angry when your daughter says this. Yeah. Don't do, don't do this. Be that way. And that doesn't work as we know.
Um, because it's, it's, it's something we've, um, where we basically, um. Put force upon ourselves. So we, we do ourselves, you know, uh, a crime towards, towards me, if. Uh, while, while if it's coming purely from an insight and it's derived, this action is derived from something deeper, then it becomes effortless, right?
And then it is the real thing. I mean, there's no, no if, if a the bad person does something good, it doesn't become a good person. It's still a bad person, right? Trying to be good. Uh, while with your approach, with your way of doing things. Now it is, it's a real transformation. And because of these insights, you are a different person, but not because you're trying to be that person.
It's just because. Now this is the, the natural thing that evolves and grows out of your, of your, uh, of your insights and of the work you do, uh, for your consciousness. And I think that's the power powerful and I think is the only true transformation. The only real transformation, everything else is.
Really just applying force against yourself and it's, it's not working. Um, and only creates more resistance. So I think what you've described here is really, really beautiful and powerful. So, uh, I would would like to thank you very, very much for that Mayana, and I'm, uh, thank you. So glad. Yeah. We started off with, you said, I wanna talk about some of the insights we have in the Consciousness Lab, and I think you've taken us on a beautiful journey here.
And I'm definitely going to be, uh, someone who's going to listen to this conversation over and over and over again. Mm-hmm. Uh, because there was so much beauty in it and so much, uh, to learn. But again, not learning from an intellectual point. Uh, but really now from, from a different point. And you described this beautiful when you, when you were basically, you were not really.
Asking a question in order to get an answer. Mm-hmm. You were staying with the question. Uh, and I think that's, that's, that's, that's a thing that a lot of us are doing wrong. 'cause the moment we have an answer, it's end of story and, uh, we close up. But if we continue to stay with the question. All things can come up.
And, uh, our learning process is such just so much deeper and so much more comprehensive than if we just say, okay, here's the question, here's my answer next, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think this is great, uh, to see how that you are working like this in the Consciousness Lab and that you just stay with the question, ask it over and over and over again, and then these beautiful things come, uh, as a result.
So thank you very much, Mariana. Uh, great work also to the rest of the Consciousness Lab. Um, I know you've got some amazing people in there. Yeah. And, uh, so that's wonderful. So thank you again for the conversation and I'm sure it's gonna be a third episode in the not too, uh, far future. Thank you. Thank you.
We trust you enjoyed this conversation and we invite you to subscribe to our podcast so we can stay in touch and notify you. We will end today's episode with the eight verses meditation performed by Zhineng Qigong teacher Katrien Hendrickx. Enjoy.
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