The History of Qigong: Past, Present, Future - John Millar

In this episode John Millar dissects an expansive Qigong History, tracing its roots back thousands of years to ancient Chinese health traditions. He explores how Qigong has significantly evolved over time, offering insights into its societal impact in historic China, its effects, and its far-reaching influences. John also engages in a thoughtful discussion on Dr. Pang Ming's pivotal role, both historically and in the contemporary practice of Qigong, particularly its transition into medical Qigong.

Zhineng Qigong practice is a rich blend of ancient wisdom and modern adaptation, reflecting the complex cultural and historical landscape of China. The emergence of Zhineng Qigong in the mid-20th century marked a significant shift towards a more accessible and scientifically grounded approach to health. This evolution was influenced by the Chinese government's desire for a public healthcare system, leading to a focus on the physical benefits of Qigong while distancing it from more spiritual elements associated with practices like Falun Gong.

John emphasizes Qigong's deep roots in Daoism, while also highlighting the influence from other practices like Buddhism, Daoyin exercises, and animal mimicry. He also reflects on how the "Monkey King: Journey to the West" folktale symbolizes the interplay between Chinese and Indian spiritual traditions, further enriching Qigong's cultural tapestry. With his profound understanding of Qigong history, John examines the practice as a movement that has not only evolved but has potentially influenced other Eastern practices, such as Yoga.

In the end, he also provides a detailed analysis of the current state of Zhineng Qigong, noting how it has transformed to meet the needs of a more modern society. John elaborates on its transition into medical Qigong and explores Dr. Pang Ming's significant role in advancing this holistic health modality.

Mindful Moments:

• Lao Tzu's teachings on balance are evident in practices like Zhineng Qigong, which emphasize the mind-body connection. The concept of "where the mind goes, the qi follows."
• While Daoism provides a philosophical foundation, traditional Chinese medicine, though newer, has also significantly influenced Qigong's development.
• Difference between Falun Gong and other Qigong forms, and their impact on Chinese society and democracy.
• Dr. Pang Ming’s crucial role in shaping Qigong history.
• Buddhism introduced physical exercises like Yijinjing and Baduanjin through figures like Bodhidharma, with the Shaolin Temple as a prime example.

Links & Resources:

FREE Zhineng Qigong Starter Kit, learn La Qi for free: https://qigong-starter-kit.com/
John's interview with Dr Pang: https://www.zhineng-qigong-students-hub.com/dr-pang-ming/#interview
Monkey King: Journey to the West: https://t.ly/RwWnJ
Connect with John: https://qigongacademy.org/our-approach/john-millar/

🎙️🌟Explore more podcasts, events, and resources visit:
https://www.zhineng-qigong-students-hub.com/

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Transcript

[00:00:00] John Millar takes us through the fascinating history of Qigong, starting thousands of years ago with simple movements imitating the movements of animals, to its current form of Zhineng Qigong science. Not without controversy and political turmoil, this episode sheds some light on into where we come from, where we are today, and where we are heading from here.

[00:00:27] My name is Torsten Lueddecke and [00:00:30] this is the Wisdom Qigong podcast. 

[00:00:34] The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals involved. The content is for informational purposes only and should not be taken as fact. 

[00:00:44] The history of Qigong is, is always a contentious one. I remember years ago, one of my first introductions was the work of Ken Kao and Ken Kao points it back to the Wu of ancient China.

[00:00:56] So the shamanic practices of ancient China. [00:01:00] There are people who say that it's back to about 4000 BC. There are people who say it's older. There are people who say it's newer. I think when we look at Qigong as a subject, We need to recognize that actually, Qigong only came into existence in its current kind of form in the 1950s.

[00:01:23] Prior to this, there was a number of practices that existed. 

[00:01:27] That's a little disappointing, because we keep [00:01:30] promoting Zhineng qigong as based on thousands of years of Chinese wisdom. And now you come and say it's only been around since the 1950s. 

[00:01:38] I'm sorry. Yep, that that that that's the case. But, but we're not lying.

[00:01:44] Qigong is a term. It's only been around since the 1950s, but the underpinning practices, whether we look at Daoyin, which is one of the older, more recognized sort of labels that was given to it, or whether we push back into prehistory, we can [00:02:00] still see the process going through. So, you know, if we take Ken Kao's perspective and go, Oh, Ancient, ancient shamanic practices.

[00:02:11] At this point, we find something very interesting. And the argument here is that, in those times, we would imitate the movement of animals in order to achieve their abilities. So if you want to hunt more effectively, you may imitate a tiger. If you want to stalk more [00:02:30] quietly, you may imitate a deer. And you would look at nature as an inspiration in order to help you in your survival.

[00:02:39] And then, you know, that just makes sense. Absolutely. And if you look at that idea around the world, What you find is that in, in, in China, this has moved into the martial arts. It's moved into Qigong, it's moved, it's moved through the spiritual traditions. If you move into Siberia, [00:03:00] the Siberian shamanic practices have this inspiration.

[00:03:04] If you move to Central America, you can talk about the Central American practices and, you know, Carlos Castaneda's magical passes and all of this stuff. You can, you can see it in every, every country around the world. You can see this influence. I sometimes joke and say that, you know, in the UK, we still have this influence and it's called Morris dancing.

[00:03:27] It's the, it's, it's the, it's the [00:03:30] older, well, it tends to be a slightly older generation of people who turn up at pubs on a Sunday wearing bells on their ankles and hitting each other with sticks, it's, it's but we can see it come through all cultures, but in China it came through as qigong. So then we have to say, well, what, what is it that turned it into Qigong in China, compared to Marist dancing or other seemingly unrelated things in other cultures?

[00:03:57] And that's where I think it gets interesting, [00:04:00] because if you look at China and you look at the way that the spiritual practices evolved, the first one that we really see documented is Taoism. So we can point back to people like Lao Tzu. And the ideas that sit within Daoism, to me, appear to be absolutely core to the ideas that sit within Zhineng Qigong.

[00:04:23] To me, it's probably more of a Daoist practice than it is a Buddhist practice, although there is this, these references to Pang [00:04:30] as Pang Monk when he was in a Buddhist phase. And Taoism, yeah, what can I say about Taoism? It has, to me, a sense of simplicity within it. There's a piece here that is very much about, the best way to describe it.

[00:04:51] The idea yi dao qi dao, , so where the mind goes, the qi follows. You can see that within Buddhist practice. The concept [00:05:00] of Hunyuan Qi, comes directly from some of the ideas within Buddhism about wuji, about non action, about wu wei, about all, there's these direct correlations. , and the practice of the, the use of the embodied practices that you see within the shamanic traditions as they moved through Buddhism actually got an interesting hit to them because one of the ideas within, sorry, within Daoism, one of the ideas within Daoism is that you need to have a [00:05:30] long life in order to achieve The aims within Taoism.

[00:05:35] So it's natural then for the Taoist spiritual practices to have a health aspect to it. And arguably, this is the part that's then picked up by the Yellow Emperor. By the way, if you Google the dates for the Yellow Emperor, it's massively confusing, because the Yellow Emperor's classic appears to have been written a significant, and I mean hundreds and hundreds of years after the Yellow Emperor [00:06:00] actually lived.

[00:06:02] So there's all kinds of bits and pieces there, but yeah, I think that initial connection between spiritual and, and health practice occurs with around Taoism, and so we're talking, what are the dates for Lao Tzu, off the top of my head I'm thinking about 250 So this is the first part that we really see, the physical practices and the spiritual practices coming together.

[00:06:28] Now, let me just make [00:06:30] sure because, , you, you, you, you mentioned Buddhism, , two or three times, but you meant Taoism, you corrected yourself, right? Yeah. So, okay. Just for the listener, we were talking about Taoism here and all these things. Perfect. No worry. No worry. Yeah. Okay. But that's, that's, that's a great, , point you're making here, you know, connecting the spirituality with the health.

[00:06:50] aspect. , so this is obviously something which is extremely present in Qigong, , also because, you know, Qigong and traditional Chinese medicine go [00:07:00] hand in hand. , so let's take it from, from, from that point. You have, you're with, we are with a yellow emperor at the moment who's so often credited to be the founder, the founding father of Qigong, right?

[00:07:12] He is. Yeah. And, and I think there is, there is an element of truth within it. But we also need to understand that the Yellow Emperor is, in many ways, a mythical character. , so the Yellow Emperor's Classic, which is somewhere up there, will be the Yellow Emperor's Classic. The [00:07:30] dates are so much later than he existed.

[00:07:34] But Chinese medicine, and I'm also going to pick up on the idea of traditional Chinese medicine versus classical Chinese medicine. Again, a lot of people think that traditional Chinese medicine is a very old system. It's not. It's the latest iteration of a very old system. So we can actually, for traditional Chinese medicine, there's an argument that it only actually occurred in 1972.[00:08:00] 

[00:08:01] Another disappointment, John. Another disappointment. I'm sorry. You call it traditional and then it's not. 

[00:08:07] I, I'm, I'm, I am, , yeah, I, I'm, yeah, I'm full of disappointment, mate. Now, again, if you look at that and we'll just jump forward to that bit, in 1972, China was reaching out to America and there was, President Nixon had an entourage go to America and one of his, , journalists or one of the journalists covering it had an [00:08:30] appendicitis.

[00:08:32] And this is the first point that we really see acupuncture appearing in the Western dialogue. Because he had acupuncture as the analgesic when he had the appendix operation, and it went everywhere. So that was the first point that we really see the idea of traditional Chinese medicine. But prior to this we have something called classical Chinese medicine.

[00:08:53] And classical Chinese medicine is a, it's actually a more complex system. So when we talk about the five [00:09:00] elements, and we'll see a lot of people talk about five elements, and you know, the circle of the creative and the control cycle with a pentagram in the middle, and that's only one representation.

[00:09:10] Within classical, there's actually the representation with the earth element in the middle, surrounded by the four elements. And this again speaks to other, other ways of viewing things through, through Chinese medicine. And also we talk about, , postnatal and prenatal [00:09:30] qi within, within the classical more than we do within the traditional.

[00:09:35] So it's just labels. The origins of the Chinese medicine go back millennia. The origins of the Qigong go back millennia, but we mustn't confuse the current terms that are used for them with where they came from. Okay, so let's, let's jump onto Buddhism, because Buddhism is also quite an interesting one.

[00:09:58] So a lot of [00:10:00] people will point to Bodhidharma's visit to the Shaolin temple as being the origin of certain forms of Qigong. So when you talk about the Buddha Jin, which are two very classic Qigong forms. Yijin is, the muscle and tendon work. And the story that goes with it is that Bodhidharma, when he came, realized that the monks that were sitting there meditating, They were ignoring the physical being, and therefore they weren't healthy, and they weren't doing so [00:10:30] well, so they needed to have exercise.

[00:10:31] So again, this spiritual tradition and the need for health gets emphasized in this perspective. But we also need to recognize that, over the course of history, the Chinese, the, well, let's just say the controlled land mass that China had rose and shrinks at various times. And so, at certain points, it includes Tibet, it includes Korea, [00:11:00] it includes Taiwan, it includes all of these areas.

[00:11:03] And then, you can't just point at Bodhidharma, you've got to also point at Padmasambhava, who's the founder of Tibetan Buddhism, and the influence of Tibetan Buddhism on China. And on top of that, you've also got to look at Monkey Journey to the West, this, this amazing folktale that's become quite well known.

[00:11:25] And I would encourage anybody who hasn't read Monkey to go and get a [00:11:30] copy of Monkey, there is a Sorry, I'm going to just give a brief plug here. 

[00:11:34] This is a, this is a podcast. Not everybody is watching it. So we'll, you'll have to tell us what you're doing. 

[00:11:41] Yes. Yeah, absolutely. There's, there's a version of monkey by an author called Julia Lovell, which is the book I'm holding up now, which is just a beautiful rendition of it.

[00:11:53] I will put the details in the show notes, so for those that couldn't see the book now, , that they can have access and, you know, [00:12:00] get it if they are interested. Yes. 

[00:12:02] Yeah. , now again, Monkey is a fascinating story because it talks about It kind of takes the mickey out of the Taoist traditions and the Buddhist traditions and points to all the shortcomings that sit within them within this folktale about a monkey king, but it's called monkey journey to the West, and it's what it's also recognizing is the is the influence of the West.

[00:12:27] As in west of China, so India, [00:12:30] on the spiritual traditions of China. So there's all these bits that are all weaving through as well. So there's a, to me, this is a fascinating part of history. Right. And to add just one more bit into that before we come up to date and talk about Zhineng. There's some really fascinating stuff around the Daoyin exercises.

[00:12:51] So there's two main points here. One is in about 400 AD. I can't give precise dates. I'm useless at remembering dates. [00:13:00] The government took control of Daoyin. They started to regulate the physical exercise practices. So when the government, when the Chinese government did this more recently, it isn't without precedent.

[00:13:16] It's happened before.

[00:13:21] My name is Leilah Cupido, and I'm the project manager of the Students Hub. Our team is constantly adding events, [00:13:30] teachers, videos, and other resources to take your practice to the next level. Improving the quality of your life, and the life of the people around you. We do this work for you. So please use it.

[00:13:45] Hunyuan Lingtong. 

[00:13:48] And what is the, what's the reason at that point in time that the Chinese government thought that you have to regulate the movements? 

[00:13:56] I couldn't give you precise details on that one. One of the [00:14:00] people that we work with, her PhD was covering this area and I have got access to the paper, but I wouldn't like to summarize cause I may get it wrong, but, but there is always a sense that these practices can have great power.

[00:14:16] Okay. Right. We can talk more clearly about what's happened in the more recent times than we can what happened 1600 years ago. Of course. But the other thing that's interesting is that the earliest [00:14:30] recorded version or the earliest recorded Daoyin exercises, look very similar to the earliest recorded yoga practices.

[00:14:41] But the kicker here is that the earliest recorded Daoyin practices predate the yoga practices by about 400 years. 

[00:14:48] Well, at least that's good news for our marketing here. So we 

[00:14:53] are older than yoga. So potentially, we are the origin of yoga, which is a really [00:15:00] weird thought, right? Because the perceived wisdom is that everything came out of yoga.

[00:15:05] India, but actually if you look at the way that the interactions occurred, there was an exchange with India, or, you know, it's never one way traffic in these things, there's always cross cultural influence. So, yeah, there is potential that Qigong actually is the origin of yoga. Well, Daoyan is the origin of yoga.

[00:15:28] I think it's probably safer to say they [00:15:30] have a common source. Right. Cause I can, 

[00:15:34] I can already see all the commentaries of yoga practitioners underneath our podcast. 

[00:15:40] Yes, absolutely. And I think, I think that I think by far the safest thing to say is that there are a range of related practices with a common source.

[00:15:51] And I think that if anybody is actually bold enough to stand up and say, we are the original practice, they're probably worth ignoring. [00:16:00] So yeah, so yeah, there's this rich sort of history that goes through. And if you look at the dynasties in China and the way that they rose and the way that they sort of larger areas were taken in, then they shrank back.

[00:16:12] The need for, you know, if you look at the warring states, if you look at these types of times, the need for there to be significant martial aspect within the movements, the need for the health practices to be through, this underlying spiritual thing that runs through as well. And so it's no surprise [00:16:30] that a number of people now, when they talk about the, the basis of Qigong, they will talk about the combination of the martial, the medical, and the spiritual.

[00:16:40] Sure. And the influence of those on, on the modern day practices. So, yeah. But if we bring it right up to date. Sorry, I'm just going Blair at you, so you'll have to put up with it just a little bit longer. I love it. So, if we look at, , sort of 1949 onwards becomes very [00:17:00] interesting. So, pre 1949, we have this period from, I'm going to go 1912.

[00:17:06] As I say, please don't trust me on days, please check them. Where, we have the fall of the last dynasty within China, and then the rise of the communists and the nationalists, and there's all kinds of, stuff going on between them. Uh, an uh, in 1949, having had the Long March in the [00:17:30] 1930s, where Mao had, retreated to the north of China, , we then start to see the, the kind of start of the current period within China.

[00:17:41] And so at this point, there's a couple of really fascinating things that have happened. The first thing to say is about Taiji. Okay, now, I have quite strong views about Taiji. As a Qigong practitioner, I consider Taiji, and if [00:18:00] you look at one of the translations as Grand Ultimate Boxing, I don't consider it to be the health practice.

[00:18:06] I consider it to be the martial art. But I'm a Qigong practitioner, so of course everything, right up to the pure martial art, looks like Qigong to me. Quite a lot of yoga looks like Qigong to me, because I'm a Qigong practitioner. Yes. If I was a Taiji practitioner, I'd probably say pretty much everything up to the purest Taoist aspect is Taiji.

[00:18:27] So we're in murky ground. [00:18:30] But in 1948, there's a couple of people that we have to mention at this point. One is a lady called Sophia Delza. And Sophia Delsa was the, she was in Shanghai at this time and she was introduced to Taiji. Now you've got to think that there's been a lot of bad feeling about Western influence following the Opium Wars.

[00:18:54] Just have a look at the Opium Wars, you'll find out why. Especially Britain came off [00:19:00] rightfully with a very bad reputation because of them. So it's unlikely. That the people who are teaching Tai Chi would teach the people who have, they've got such bad feeling about the secrets of their martial arts.

[00:19:16] But Sophia Delza was a, was a dancer, she was a choreographer. And she learnt the Tai Chi from, effectively, servants at their property. And then brought it back to America and taught it. So, There are two dilutions that we see. [00:19:30] One is a dancer, and the other one is not martial. And at the same point, we have a lady called Gerda Geddes.

[00:19:39] Similar situation, brought Tai Chi back to the UK. And both are credited with being the first people to bring Tai Chi back to the West. But we need to go, what is it they actually brought back? And I think we need to ask the same questions of Qigong. When we start to see Qigong come into the [00:20:00] West, why has it arrived, and what's going on?

[00:20:03] What was the situation at the time? Now, following on from, , this particular piece, 1948, we then move into a period called the Great Leap Forward. So the Great Leap Forward is 1958, 1962, something like that. So this is when they start to move the whole basis of the Chinese economy, [00:20:30] and they start to make big, big advances.

[00:20:33] But it also corresponds with the Great Famine. So there's great hardship as well. So there is a significant need at this point for a health practice. And this is the first point we see qigong being used in the term in, in something like the modern equivalence. Right. It did exist previously in the Qing dynasty, so 1600s to 1900s in some [00:21:00] martial arts.

[00:21:01] But the first time we see it in the sort of way that we view it nowadays is in this period in the 1950s around a health practice that's being promoted by the government. to support, significant health issues. So this is the first point that we see Qigong. 

[00:21:21] Before that, let me just ask. So it's an illusion if we think that all the Chinese people, all those thousands of years now, when they woke up in the morning, the [00:21:30] first thing they would do were Qigong exercises, even though we didn't call them that way.

[00:21:34] It was not like that. 

[00:21:37] I, I wasn't there, I couldn't say. It wouldn't have been called qigong. But then if you look at some of the exercises, so for example, Tai Chi ball. Tai Chi ball, I think, is an incredible exercise. But Tai Chi ball isn't Tai Chi ball. Tai Chi ball is dragon dao yin. And so in Chinese mythology, the dragon is the is the animal that connects into [00:22:00] heaven and earth.

[00:22:01] Does this sound familiar? Ding tian li di. Right. And the ball that it isn't a ball. It's either an egg. which is the start of new life, or a pearl, which is the beauty that comes from disruption. And it's the movement of this between heaven and earth. So as a purely spiritual practice, this has vast meaning and predates Taiji Ball, potentially by thousands of years.

[00:22:29] Right. 

[00:22:29] [00:22:30] Because it sits completely within Chinese mythology. So to me, you're more likely to have seen Taiji Bu being practiced. than La Qi. But then the fundamental principles that sit within La Qi are common principles. So I was talking earlier this week to a Canadian author who's writing, she's a yoga teacher, and a yoga practitioner, and her big piece is around, around [00:23:00] introspection and understanding the internal space.

[00:23:04] And one of the people involved in the conversation was a choreographer from Germany. And he was saying, yes, but we can't understand our internal space without understanding the space around us. And I'm sitting there going, I think you're talking about La Qi, because that's, this is the outside space. This is the inside space.

[00:23:25] Yes. So, you know, to say that La Qi [00:23:30] didn't exist before Pang, I think is, is, is probably, you know, we, we see these ideas thousands and thousands of years ago. So, and if you look at the movements that we have within, for example, lift you up, push you down, embody mind. And then you compare those to some of the more traditional, so like the Shaolin schools of Qigong, you find massive commonality.

[00:23:57] So, yes, before [00:24:00] 1950s, the Daoism practices, were probably very, very similar to what we now know as Qigong, but Qigong is a term only occurred in the 1950s. 

[00:24:11] So then let's continue there. You said, so in the 1950s, the government was looking for a way to promote health for their people. And it was a time where there were scarce resources and they couldn't come up with expensive Western medicine.

[00:24:26] And that's when they, they said, okay, well, Qigong is a really good idea [00:24:30] because we know it's working. And let's take it from there, please. 

[00:24:33] Yeah, so at this point we have a meeting of a couple of practices that form what was, at that point, interestingly called Qigong therapy. And that combined aspects of Taoism, of Buddhism, of, of a number of the traditional pieces, Chinese medicine, into the movement.

[00:24:53] But that was problematic. So, during the, , Cultural Revolution, so Cultural [00:25:00] Revolution is 66 to 76, I've just glanced down and checked my dates, they are correct. Good. What happens is that the Red Guards are very anti anything that refers back to the old style of China. So although there was this first resurgence, as it gets referred to, of Qigong, in the 1950s, by the mid 60s, It's already being suppressed.

[00:25:26] There's some pretty unpleasant things happening to Qigong practitioners. [00:25:30] 

[00:25:30] And the idea was, , we now have communism, , it's a revolution, every, anything old basically has to be, has to, we have to get rid of, and it's evil because we are building a complete new world. That's kind of the, if I summarize it in simple terms, that's the, that's the thought of the Chinese government at that point, right?

[00:25:52] Yeah, and even when you come out of the end of the Cultural Revolution, the excesses that happened during that period, [00:26:00] there's, you know, everybody's blaming everybody else for them. But you can see that kind of fundamentalist piece coming through, going, no, that's old, we don't want it, we need to get rid of it.

[00:26:11] So then we move forward to 1972. , I'm just glancing down. 79. That's the date I was looking for. I wish I could remember dates. And this is the start of what's called the reform period. Now, in the reform period, what happens is that [00:26:30] China starts to go, we need to find a way to move forward. We need to find a way to reinvent ourselves economically and make ourselves successful.

[00:26:39] So they then open up four key economic areas in the country. and invite foreign investment in. And this has, these areas do amazing things. But unfortunately, what also happens is that the other areas in the country suffer as a result. There's [00:27:00] also a piece here about the introduction of Western medicine and the sheer cost of Western medicine.

[00:27:05] Because opening the hospitals, I mean, the, the amount of funding that's needed to bring the machinery in and the equipment and everything else. Western medicine is very expensive, and we've got large areas of the country that again are in poverty because of the collapse of the economy outside of these four key financial areas.

[00:27:24] So they lean on Qigong again, and it comes back in. And it's this [00:27:30] process, it's this cycle, it's this second resurgence that is the birthplace of Zhineng. Now, the government guideline at this point was that they needed a health care system, they needed a public health system that was deeply effective for people, it was accessible and it was scientific.

[00:27:50] The things it wasn't allowed to be was spiritual. Right. 

[00:27:55] And the reason for 

[00:27:55] that is? Within the whole of communist China, there's kind of a [00:28:00] suppression of religion, and religion and spirituality seem to go hand in hand. And there's an argument here that the spiritual leaders or the religious leaders exert too great a power over the population.

[00:28:12] We can take that however we want to, but I kind of look at that today and I have to question the leaders of the big religions. How much power do they exert over their population, and is that healthy? But, , this also [00:28:30] has a slight sort of undercurrent to it because it also means that spirituality or spiritual traditions within China, they kind of don't exist, but it's a human need.

[00:28:45] So as soon as something arrives that has the potential to be spiritual in a situation like this, people are going to jump on it and they're going to go, I can find everything I need in this. So we have [00:29:00] Zhineng arriving, and anyone who's studied Zhineng will know Jigong science, they'll know Huaxia center, they'll know healing, these are the things that it's really famous for, which completely correspond with what was required by the government.

[00:29:16] Right. But you also see the rise of a movement called Falun Gong, and Falun Gong is trying to plug the same hole. But they are incorporating [00:29:30] spirituality into it. So their incorporation of spirituality means they're also plugging the spiritual void. So they inspire tens of thousands of people. And they also, at this point, appear to be quite unscientific in the way that they're promoting health.

[00:29:51] And so this doesn't go down well with the government. 

[00:29:55] Now, Falun Gong, though, is, you know, really [00:30:00] It's also a Qigong form, or it has developed out of Qigong, but it's not Zhineng Qigong. I mean, it is really a different, a separate movement, right? Let's just make that clear. 

[00:30:10] Yes. We need to say that upfront. I went into my, years ago, I went into my local Chinese takeaway.

[00:30:17] And, , I was talking to them a little bit and they say, and they asked me why I knew a bit about China. And I said, I practiced Qigong and they said, you're not Falun Gong, are you? If you're Falun Gong, you leave. Right. No, I'm [00:30:30] not Falun Gong. Yes, but we need to understand where they sit within it. And yes, they, they start as a Qigong practice 

[00:30:38] and, 

[00:30:38] and evolve into a spiritual movement that I think now are classifying themselves as a religious movement.

[00:30:44] But we can also see why the government who are saying scientific health focused, not spiritual. would not approve of the approaches that Falun Gong were taking? 

[00:30:58] Absolutely. And, you know, [00:31:00] I might add, you know, I don't, I don't have an opinion on Falun Gong. They can do whatever they want from my point of view, because I'm not the Chinese government here.

[00:31:08] , so I don't have the same concerns and worries. , but obviously also one of the strong points for me of Zhineng qigong is that it's not religious. That, you know, Muslim people can do it, Christians can do it, Jews can do it, anybody can do it. I don't need a religion or it doesn't matter if I have a religion, it's a perfect coexistence with anyone.

[00:31:29] [00:31:30] And that is for me part of the attraction. So I know there was a necessity when Zhineng Qigong was founded to ground it on science. , but it's also a wonderful because it's not just, hey, let's all believe this or let's all believe that. Now, there is a scientific base to Qigong, , which obviously helps a lot of people also from the mindset to say, okay, I got it now.

[00:31:54] This is science. That's why it's working. It's far easier for a lot of people than to trust in Zhineng Qigong and to [00:32:00] say, no, it's, it's, it's obvious that it's working and we can see it. We've got proof and here we go. , just wanted to make that point. , because obviously this is a touchy thing with Falun Gong because it had an impact on the development of Zhineng Qigong just because people don't differentiate.

[00:32:16] Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, I'm, I'm very grateful that, that Falun Gong is no longer considered to be Qigong because it means that Qigong is now free to be Qigong. Right. And I would just completely back you up on what you've [00:32:30] just said. It's, it's my involvement in Zhineng Qigong, and I've studied a number of styles of Qigong, but it's actually purely Zhineng is my practice.

[00:32:38] And that's what's made it possible for me to work in places like the Middle East and in Islamic States. we can introduce these ideas in ways that are completely open and accessible to almost anybody. You know, working with scientists, working at very high levels and some of the other stuff I've done, again, we can present in a [00:33:00] way that is accessible and makes sense.

[00:33:03] And that's so powerful. So yeah, I completely agree on that one. And it's one of the things that we need to, it's one of the things that if we look at what, what Dr. Pang did, it's one of the things that I think he did incredibly well. Because, to me, Qigong, , to me, Zhineng is a spiritual practice, but it's not a religious practice.

[00:33:27] It has the ability for us to go very deep [00:33:30] inside and understand our own state, but we don't need to tie it to any particular doctrine. Right. So yeah, getting slightly sidetracked. Okay. 

[00:33:40] Okay. Let's go back to where, where were we exactly? 1970 something, right? 

[00:33:45] Yeah. So, so we're in the second resurgence and we're in the, in the mid eighties.

[00:33:51] And so at this point, there's, there's a couple of narratives that we hear and I think that we need to be cautious around these. Because I think that [00:34:00] both of them are true to an extent, but it's, it's not really, as with anything, it's not necessarily easy to say what is the whole picture. So the first thing that we hear is that because of the Huaxia Center, it appears that the Chinese government, considered qigong to be a cultural treasure.

[00:34:19] So they then produced a, a league table of qigongs. Now, unsurprisingly, Zhineng is at the top, not because it's the best qigong for [00:34:30] everybody, but because it was the one that was most accessible and most relevant and most widely proven in China in the 1990s. So, you know, when we hear number one, qigong in China, you need to then sort of think about that one and go, right, so most relevant to 1990s China.

[00:34:49] Okay. That's what they mean. Falun Gong didn't make the top 10. Yes. Not surprised. Yes. So therefore, that was a little bit [00:35:00] of upset. And the stories I hear is that they mobilized 60, 000, at least 60, 000 followers to protest. Now, what I understand of Now, when you say they, you mean Falun Gong, , organized, yes.

[00:35:15] Okay. And there was some very unpleasant things happening in Tiananmen Square around this. So I've heard reports of Falun Gong, , followers setting light to themselves in the same way that you see the Buddhist monks setting [00:35:30] light to themselves in protests in other countries. There's some very, it isn't just.

[00:35:37] They weren't top 10. There was a whole load of other stuff going on. And there was a massive movement. There were people who were completely inspired by Falun Gong, who then protested. So then the government decided to take action. Now this is where one of the other myths about Qigong comes in. A couple of the stars of Qigong that I've studied have said, Oh, no, no, Qigong was [00:36:00] banned because our system is too powerful.

[00:36:03] No, sorry. Qigong was banned Or certain styles of Qigong were banned because of the influence they had over large parts of the population that weren't aligned with the government. But Qigong itself was never actually banned, which again is like Hey, because I've always been taught that. What actually happened was that the government yet [00:36:30] again, as they did in the, , in the fourth century with Daoyin, they took control.

[00:36:35] Right. And they launched something that's called Health Qigong. And Health Qigong is the accepted version of Qigong, or was the accepted version of Qigong in China for many years. And interestingly, Health Qigong leans back into Baduajian, into Ijinjin, into Imai, into all kinds of traditional Daoyin exercises.

[00:36:58] And it [00:37:00] embraces the culture, , and unlike what happened, with the Great Leap Forward. They've completely embraced the original culture, but they've done it in a way that is acceptable, and there is research done on it. They have qigong competitions to see who's the best person in the forms and these types of things, but heath qigong stepped in.

[00:37:24] Now, the other thing that we hear is that when the Huaxia Center closed down, a lot [00:37:30] of the people retrained into Tuina. Now that didn't happen because Qigong was just banned overnight. There was a process that occurred. So yes, Zhineng Qigong was something that wasn't able to be practiced. Certainly the first time I was in China to train, it was not an acceptable practice.

[00:37:53] Subsequently, sort of two or three years later, it wasn't an acceptable practice. Things move very quickly in China. Yes. [00:38:00] But also we then see this idea of Pang. And again, lots of narrative around this that I would have to question, you know, we hear about him. I mean, the, the, the strongest one I've heard is, oh, he was in prison for many years.

[00:38:13] , the more general one that we hear is house arrest. Again, where the truth of this is, I don't know whether we will ever actually find out. But one of the things that is clear, at this time, Pang took the, , agreed never to [00:38:30] be involved with Zhineng Qigong ever again. And this was reinforced to me when one of the teachers came over and he said, Pang's heard something about what I was doing with the companies at the time.

[00:38:44] And I just immediately turned around and said, but Pang's not got anything to do with Zhineng Qigong. And the response was, yeah, absolutely. This isn't about Zhineng Qigong. It's just like, okay, fair enough. This makes me very cynical about when we [00:39:00] see, people in China talking about Pang's latest teachings on Zhineng Qigong

[00:39:05] it feels, and I'm probably speaking out of turn here, so please feel free to shoot me down, but my sense is that because of the promises that were made, that I understood are still being kept, when we hear these claims, we have to question, where do they come from? Who are they serving? And what's going on?

[00:39:25] And again, it's that piece about, if we understand a bit of the history [00:39:30] and the things that happen, we can see a little bit more of what's happening nowadays more clearly.

[00:39:38] So, I can move forward from here if you would like. 

[00:39:43] Well, yeah, I mean, I think we need to look a little bit more into what you just said, because, , you know, that's also things that I hear, for the first time in such clarity. , now, my understanding is, , that, , you know, Dr. [00:40:00] Pang is, , present, , I'm sure he, , he is.

[00:40:06] , in line like, you know, many others that support the current government in China, Chinese people. I mean, that's just what you do in China, , for, you know, for, for better or for, for worse. But, , I, you know, I hear he's talking at conferences. I hear he's, , you know, , around. So, . We, you might use different terms, but I, I [00:40:30] cannot see that he has withdrawn completely, , from public life or from being a contribution in the area of health and wellbeing.

[00:40:37] Doesn't matter how you call it. And I'm sure he has his, you know, his, , his, his new insights that he's also, you know, making sure people, , humanity learns about 

[00:40:49] right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But, and again, here we hit into an interesting area. One of the universities that I've been working [00:41:00] with is University of Wales.

[00:41:01] You don't need to go into detail about them, but they have two partner universities that they work with in China, Jianxi and Beijing Union. Most interestingly for us in this conversation is Jiangxi. Jianxi University, one of the associate professors is Dr. Pang, and the work that he's doing there is actually being pushed forward as medical qigong.

[00:41:25] Right. So it's not Zhineng qigong, it is now medical [00:41:30] qigong. 

[00:41:30] Yes. 

[00:41:30] And if you study medical qigong, if you look at medical qigong, you'll find a lot of commonality between the things that exist within medical qigong and Zhineng qigong. And actually you'll find that there's, it's kind of an open secret that medical qigong is derived from Zhineng qigong.

[00:41:47] But 

[00:41:48] the focus in medical qigong is slightly different. So if we look at the studies that are being done in the universities, if we look at the way that universities in the West, so for example, [00:42:00] University of Northumberland has done research into medical qigong around long COVID and also around insomnia.

[00:42:07] We're seeing more and more of these things happening, and Dr. Pang is still present within this process. There is, yeah, there's, there's, yeah, the whole question about, , Qigong within the academic system, I think is, again, it's a bit of a can of worms, [00:42:30] because there are many reasons why it should be there, and there are also many reasons why it shouldn't be there.

[00:42:36] But to me, there is this core, and last time we spoke, we spoke about, you know, what is the, or we mentioned, what is the core of the practice. To me, one of the things that is hugely inspiring is that, that, that, that core of what Qigong is actually about still seems to be present within the work that Dr.

[00:42:59] Pang is [00:43:00] doing. But it doesn't need to be classified as Juneng, it's now coming through as medical, and it gets supplied into a different place. Yes. 

[00:43:07] And I think that is, that is where, you know, the two of us meet again, , because that is also my understanding. If you look at, , how, yeah, you could, you could argue that the original Zhineng Qi Gong is currently practiced and really flourishes in the West.

[00:43:24] Because we don't have these agendas. We don't have that history, you know, the political and, , the, the, the other [00:43:30] ideas around that. We just see how wonderful it is. So it's currently upheld in the West by practitioners like you. I mean, you said you were focusing on your, your practices, Zhineng Qigong, , or like many of our listeners.

[00:43:41] So we are, we are holding this up while in China, , it is a little bit, that they are trying to move their way back. into qi neng qi gong, you know, using slightly different approaches, using slightly different terms. , but the, but making sure the essence and the, [00:44:00] and the, and the incredible healing power of zhineng qi gong is preserved maybe in slightly different practices, maybe slightly different ways that are less, that have less history, , around them.

[00:44:11] , so it's easier to, to do that. But, , in a way one, one could say, you know, the, powerful, , Zhineng Qigong is currently practiced in the West, , while in China, they had to take this little detour, but it seems a lot that, you know, the, that the, that the officials in China are loosening up quite, quite a bit.

[00:44:29] And as you said, things [00:44:30] are moving fast in China. And China, you know, one thing about China is they're an extremely intelligent country and also their leadership is extremely intelligent. So if they see things are working well and it has, it brings progress to the country, yeah, they're quite willing to embrace it as long as it doesn't go into the fun and gone away and taking a course on its own saying, okay guys, forget communism.

[00:44:53] We know better because we are a spiritual movement or we are this or we are that. So I think it is kind of reintroduced. , [00:45:00] slowly and a little careful because that's also part of the Chinese, , culture. Now you take tiny steps and see and look what's happening. , but, , in a way I'm, I'm also saying that the West is doing a great service to Zhineng Qigong here because we are upholding it at the moment.

[00:45:15] And, we are practicing obviously with support from masters from China who know exactly how things work and, , and share their knowledge and wisdom with us. 

[00:45:26] Yeah, there's a, there's a piece here that I also think is [00:45:30] fascinating, that if we look at the, if we look at the need for the creation of Zhineng Qigong, , so we're talking about a system that was developed for the needs of China in the 1980s.

[00:45:43] Yes. , and it's very easy to then turn around and say, well, why are the needs of China in the 1980s relevant to the West in the 2020s? And that's a question I think we should always ask ourselves, because it helps us to actually put things into some point of consideration. [00:46:00] reference, but we've hit one of the really big ones already in the conversation.

[00:46:05] There's aspects that we approach within Zhineng Qigong that are unspoken, but are very much present. And those same aspects around spirituality, around openness in this area, around healing, are as deeply relevant today in the West as they were in China in the 1990s. 

[00:46:26] Right. 

[00:46:27] But there are also aspects that were [00:46:30] very much present within China in the 1990s that are no longer as relevant in the West in the 2020s.

[00:46:37] My understanding of Pang's teaching and my understanding of the invitation moving forward was that he wanted the practice to continue to evolve and certainly his actions. I've spoken about the evolution of the practice. So my sense is that we need to recognize where it came from and also be willing to adapt and change to [00:47:00] meet the needs that exist within the cultures that we live in, within the people that we work with.

[00:47:06] And again, it's not about dilution. It's about recognizing the core and being able to work with the core ideas. 

[00:47:13] Absolutely. I mean, I'm a little skeptical when it comes to the delusion thing, , because, , I just know that if a lot of people are all bringing their own stuff to it, then we might just get into trouble.

[00:47:27] , while we know that the, that the [00:47:30] fundamental, practice that Dr. Pang has developed is working so well. So it's a bit, , why would I. Why would I change things? I get your reasoning when you say, some of the needs in China in the 80s are not the same that we have today. Now, at the same time, I find it difficult to, to see what, , that these, that these differences are so substantial that it will justify meddling around.

[00:47:56] So, , because fundamentally, you know, the, [00:48:00] where we, we know that Western medicine doesn't have answers to all our ailments. We know that Western medicine comes at a high price and I'm not just talking financially here. I'm talking about. There's an interference from the outside, you know, through drugs, , through operations that obviously has so many ripple effects, , that are not all positives and that might do damage in other parts of the bodies because, you know, you're looking at problems in a very isolated way.

[00:48:27] Qigong doesn't have these things. And, [00:48:30] and, , now we're just talking about the health, the health part of it, you know, the whole, , idea. I had a podcast yesterday and it was all about happiness because at the core of Qigong is also happiness, , happy mind, , healthy thinking, all of that. It's just so, this is so universal.

[00:48:48] It doesn't change whether it's in China, whether it's in the West, whether it's in the eighties or whether it's today. , so that's why I'm a little more, if that's a , I know you're very experimental and Try one or two [00:49:00] things a little different here while I'm a little bit on the traditional side here and say, okay, let's try to stick to the original teachings as much as possible.

[00:49:07] But there's room for, you know, for both schools of thinking. And as you said, it's a progressive thing. And also Dr. Pang is continuously developing new things. So it's not static. , so why not adding something if you have an insight and in particular, because, you know, really Qigong is a very open system.

[00:49:27] Yeah, the ideas are the same but Yeah, [00:49:30] whether you do the lift job like this or like that doesn't really matter so much if you understand the basics, right? , so, , so I'm with you, , on one level and I'm a little less hesitant on another. 

[00:49:41] I think, I think that's such a, it's such a healthy approach. I mean, I'd like to reflect on that because all of the Chinese teachers that I've worked with have taught differently.

[00:49:51] Yes. So therefore, what is the origin? What is the real version? Because. Everyone I've worked with has spent time [00:50:00] at the Huaxia Center. They've even been, they've either been on the three month training or the two year training, you know. They've all got the same base training, but their representation of it is different.

[00:50:11] So, I think, to me, what is the core is more important. Absolutely. And if we recognize the core and we, and we keep reverting to the core and we, and we allow ourselves to always come. I mean, this is the basics of the practice. La Qi is not go out and blow your mind. [00:50:30] It's expand your awareness and then refine your awareness.

[00:50:34] It's present within the practice. But also there's some interesting, I mean, if we look at some of the practices such as the, meditation stuff or the ingwei meditation, I think one of the things that we need to bear in mind here is that practices like this are deeply relevant to certain people at certain points on their journey through Qigong, but at other points, they can actually be a [00:51:00] trap.

[00:51:00] It's a bit like the. You know, I've heard, some, some, some really relevant, complaints about mindfulness being very dangerous. My own experience of qigong is that qigong can be very dangerous. Well, not very dangerous. It can, it can back you down sort of blind alleys. I think that the purest nature of qigong that you're talking about, that doesn't have these side effects.

[00:51:27] is really important. But we need to understand [00:51:30] the practice that is relevant for the person at the right time. Yes. In order to do in order to keep that movement towards freedom, and to stop people getting stuck down blind alleys down spiritual cul de sacs, whatever we want to call them. So we don't end up in the sort of classic thing of every morning I practice for an hour.

[00:51:49] And you say, why do you do that? Oh, I couldn't cope with my day if I didn't do that. 

[00:51:54] Right. 

[00:51:54] So what you've done is you've just gone, I'm having a really tough time with it, [00:52:00] but I can cope with it because of Qigong. So all Qigong is doing is keeping you trapped in a really tough time. So, you know, there are potential side effects as well.

[00:52:10] Great, great example. Yeah. So, and, but then really, if you look, if you go deep into it, , it's obvious that this is totally contrary to the idea of Zhineng Qigong, but we don't see it. That's what you call the blind alley, right? We think we're doing this because that's the way we get through the day. But really what we are [00:52:30] doing is we are, it's in our way to change something fundamentally in the way we do our, we run our day.

[00:52:35] , so that we wouldn't be in that situation in the first place. Right. So, , yeah, absolutely. , John, this was a pleasure to talk to you. It was a very controversial conversation. , I must add a disclaimer here to our listeners. , obviously now you and I are just two human beings expressing our ideas, our opinions.

[00:52:54] We don't say this is the truth. We don't say this is a. Things, , they are, we don't know everything. We [00:53:00] are just putting out, you know, our thoughts and, , where we are at at the moment. And, , so we hope this was, you know, it gives people something to think about. I'm sure it's something we will have aroused one or two emotions here as several listeners.

[00:53:14] , but that's great. So thank you very much, John, and I hope to talk to you again soon, , in our little pre conversation that came, more things came up that we might want to discuss one day. So thank you very much for that. And, , thank you for taking the time to explain all, [00:53:30] all of your knowledge to us and the listeners here.

[00:53:32] Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. 

[00:53:36] We trust you enjoyed this conversation, and we invite you to subscribe to our podcast so we can stay in touch and notify you of future episodes. We will end today's episode with the Eight Verses Meditation performed by Zhineng Qigong teacher Katrien Hendrickx. Enjoy.


[00:56:05] get your free ebook. On the eight verses meditation, please check the show notes below.