The Spiritual Depth of Qigong - Debra Weisenburger Lipetz

Qigong’s transformative power is no secret, however for Debra Weisenburger Lipetz that’s always been the tip of the iceberg. A Zhineng Qigong teacher herself, Debra shares her journey focusing solely on techniques to discover a deeper, more spiritual dimension of Qigong. Formlessness the goal - for this should be the natural state of being.

In Qigong practice she discusses the three essential conditions: Trust, willed focus & action. Personal growth and transformation are the result when these elements are in accord. In Zhineng Qigong, the aim is balance between mind, body, and spirit.

Trust in your wisdom and intuition grows with consistent Qigong practice. Intention to practice arises as individuals experience the transformative effects of Qigong. Action is essential for progress, as it bridges the gap between intention and realisation.  “Dr. Pang has given us all these tools, and we can pick and choose what works for us. And keep changing and evolving, and that's how we progress.”, Debra explains. Being one of the few westerners who’s had the privilege of meeting the founder of Zhineng Qigong, Dr Pang Ming.

Ego in Qigong is never the answer, as it hinders you from discovering your true self. The western adage of, “comparison is the thief of joy” rings true in the practice of Qigong. Debra emphasises we are all on our own path and at our own pace to self discovery.
 
Through Qigong, an awareness shift is a common experience as students and teachers deepen their connection to themselves and the world around them. Spiritual growth is a natural consequence of consistent Qigong practice, as individuals discover their true self and purpose, as Debra notes during this episode.

Ready to find formlessness? Debra shows the way…


Mindful Moments:

• Qigong & Formlessness: To be formless is to be our natural state.  Where limitations are free from the mind
• Inner connection in Zhineng Qigong Practice: Debra discusses the importance of connecting at a deeper level. 
• How Qigong can be seen as a spiritual link to finding one's true self
• Qigong and the Mind-body connection: Debra explains how Qigong practice can help shrink the separation between body and mind
• Qigong techniques: Debra mentions many Qigong techniques, including "lift qi up, pour qi down" and wall squats. This is the action pillar that has to be taken
• How Zhineng Qigong practice can lead to natural lifestyle changes and why this is significant for overall well-being
• Qigong and ego: the potential hinderance of progress due to comparison
• Self-awareness: Debra shares her personal journey of developing self-awareness through Qigong practice and how it changed her perspective on life

Links & Resources:

Debra’s website: https://www.debchi.com/
The Day I Met Dr. Pang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB_bMfs1Wrw

🎙️🌟Explore more podcasts, events, and resources visit:
https://www.zhineng-qigong-students-hub.com/

📘📚 Get your FREE E-book on the "Eight verses meditation" by Dr Pang:
https://www.zhineng-qigong-students-hub.com/exploration-of-the-eight-verses-of-zhineng-qigong-meditation-e-book

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Transcript

When we first learned about Qigong, we tend to focus on the technique and the form. Today we take it to the next level and dive into the formless and inner connection. The space within the space, which is infinite. Debra Weisenburger Lipetz takes us on a fascinating journey into the core of who we are.

My name is Torsten Lueddecke, and this is The Wisdom Qigong podcast.

So welcome Debra, Debra, we just chatted briefly and you said you would like to talk about inner connection and formlessness. Now the formlessness automatically thought, wow, this is interesting. Now what does she actually mean by that? What does formlessness mean to you and why is that so important?

It's one of those ideas or concepts which a lot of us feel is unreachable. Or we don't know how to talk about it. So I think it's important to bring it up, because it will eventually, we will be in a different state, a different dimension through our practice at some point in time. And if you have an idea of that space, then you have no fear.

Over the years, I have been, you know, practicing forever, it seems, and I have been, from the beginning, primarily attached to technique and form, which is, is a good thing. That's not a bad thing at all. At some point in time, everything shifts, and there is a shift of awareness. And that awareness shift is what takes us to a different level.

And that awareness shift occurs because we have an inner connection. And that inner connection is something that is Gradually through our practice and repetition and working happens naturally, and I have discovered that for some people, when that occurs, they don't understand what's happening, and so they become fearful.

Which is completely unnecessary because it's a natural progression of where we are in our practice. So, when we have a repetitive practice, many things can happen. With complete form, we can become attached to The outside, the technique, the physiological aspects of what's happening to our body, and we completely cut off and ignore anything that is happening internally, not from a physiological standpoint, but from a, I'm not quite sure of the word, but from a, an interconnective standpoint.

And when we pop into that other space, it is effortless. And then our movement becomes seamless and easy because we are unsticking from form and we are focused internally. This interconnection, people call it many, many names. I'll just call it interconnection for lack of a better word. But that interconnection is.

Actually, the glue that holds everything together in our practice. So having an awareness of that inner space. It's very, very important. 

Now let's, let's look into this a little bit further, because you say you're using the word inner connection and other people use other words. Maybe you can just, you can use some of that words because for me at the moment, it doesn't bring about it.

I don't know what you mean by that. What, how would that show? What is it exactly? Inner connection with what? 

It's an inner connection with all things. Okay. So, our practice is not a religion, but is, is definitely a link, a spiritual link to finding our self. And so it's really this inner connection is opening up your heart so that you can meet for the first time your true self.

And 

that's what I mean by inner connection. It's an essence, but it's more than self. As far as self righteousness, it's not that kind of a self, it's a self that is all knowing and that self is within us always. Through our practice, we have access to that higher information, that higher essence, our true self.

And all of the years that I've been practicing, and I can only share from my own experience, For a very, very long time, I thought I was merging with my true self because I would have a wonderful experience and didn't know quite how to describe it. I have since realized that we can merge with our true self.

And have no awareness that that's what's happening. So, by understanding that there is this space within us that is infinite. The entire universe is there. We don't have to try to go inside. We don't have to try to do anything. It already exists within us. And all we have to do is become aware of it.

And through our practice, we become aware of this space, and then exploring this space, we have the potential and opportunity to meet our True Self. The first time this occurred with me, I felt like I was shaking hands with myself for the first time, and I was shocked. After how many years of practice, and I finally had a glimpse of what it's like to really have this connection.

Now, the challenge we have as students of this practice is how Staying with that connection and staying in that space. So, there are three basic conditions of our practice. And the first one is trust. So, when you think of trust, what is it you're trusting? Ultimately, what we are learning is to trust our self, our true self.

And the second basic Requirement or condition of our practice is to have this curried wish and that is like a nudge from the inside, not from the outside, but from the inside. It does not come from logic or ego. It's something inside of you that you have to, you have to practice. You have to do this. You have no choice.

And as a result, We begin to create trust and confidence. But it can only be followed by the third condition, which is action. So if we just hang out in that space and say, Oh, this is so lovely. I never want to do anything. Well, you're completely separating yourself from everything. So nothing happens because we are in a physical body.

So by understanding and shifting our awareness to our inner self or true self or essence, which is merged with everything, when we can shift that awareness, then all of our physical activities, our entire daily life becomes our practice. Then we are no longer Doing a practice in our daily life and then going back to our common daily life, but we are actually our practice mind never leaves and our entire daily life is our practice.

So there, we're shrinking that separation between body and mind.

My name is Leilah Cupido and I'm the project manager of the Students Hub. Our team is constantly adding events, teachers, videos, and other resources to take your practice to the next level. Improving the quality of your life and the life of the people around you. We do this work for you, so please use it. Hunyuan Lingtong

I'm listening here very attentively. That's really, really interesting. Now it's kind of a lecture. We've turned this podcast into a lecture, but it's so beautiful how you describe it. It's so beautiful. So please, if the thought process continues, please just continue. And I'll just ask my questions at a little later stage.

Please continue. 

You can ask your questions. No, no, no. 

Keep going. Keep going. 

Well, it's the same thing as, you know, everybody says, you know, I'm trying to create joy in my life. Well, joy is not something you can create. It's something that has to come from within us. So when we make that interconnection, we have that awareness shift, then joy, it just exudes naturally.

If you think about all the master teachers, you know, they're not like super serious. They're always giggling and laughing and they seem so happy. And that's what we always aspire to be. And it's all about making this connection and having the understanding that we have to unstick from habit, unstick from expectations.

unstick from our logic and our ego. It means we will always have logic and ego, but we don't want that to rule our life. Everything works from the inside out, not the outside in. And then we can have a very, very happy life. Easy, easy, light. 

I mean, this is a fantastic journey you described that you seem to have gone through yourself.

I mean, you can only talk about it because you discovered that for yourself, right? Now for most of us, me included, I'm nowhere near that. So where would we start this journey? We spoke about that initially we all start with our exercises and we're quite rigorous. Most of us, you know, how we do things.

And, then it seems to me that That this, that this focus on the exercises, on, on the particulars of the exercise. It's like, they shouldn't be in our way to move to the next level, right? Is that, is that a way to put it forward? Because you cannot just sit there and hope for enlightening. Yeah. So that's, so that's why we do these exercises.

That's why we start somewhere, but then, you know, the transformation, something shifts within us while we're doing it and while we continue with our practice, is that fair to say? 

Yes. Absolutely. You cannot be without the practice, the physical practice. We just can't be completely stuck on the technique.

For example, anyone can learn a form, anyone. And then with practice, you become very, very good at it. What I realized that for many, many years, I really was good at my practice. I mean, I did everything I was supposed to do. The form looked really, really nice. The technique, the finger movements, everything was perfect.

But I had lost something, and it wasn't until, Master Liu happened to come for the first time to the United States, and he did a practice that was so entirely different. It was still lift chi up, pour chi down, but his whole thought process was in a different place. And that was what was missing for me.

It was this, I called it a spiritual connection, but it was a connection, an inner connection that had been lost somewhere along the line. And then everything began to shift. Now, I'm not there either all the time, Torsten. I'm there, it used to be a glimpse. Now, it may be moments, but it's so easy because we are so trained culturally to depend on everything according to You know, our appearance, our job, how much money we make, what we look like, all of those things, and that's all coming from the outside.

When we can unstick from logic and ego and work from the inside, all of those other aspects, begin to change, our inner awareness change, and what happens. And you can see this in other people, all of a sudden they stand straighter, you know, they start wearing different clothes, not because they're trying to please someone out there, but because they are feeling comfortable within their own skin.

So, their inner essence, their inner space, It's becoming so large. It's larger than the physical body. So you are being held upright with power. Your space, which is basically ding tin lead. We are the sky. We are the earth. We are the space in between and we begin to live our life from that perspective. So it changes our mental paradigm and it changes our perception.

To talk on a practical level, what happened for you, you were doing your practice, very diligently and you were really good at what you were doing. And then at one point in this case, it was, through an encounter with master Liu, but it doesn't have to be that at one point that it was like an insight that, that, that, that struck and that you realized something and that something might actually be something completely different for someone else, right?

Because we're all at different stages and we all have different, you know, The different processes that we go through. So, but, but there is this shift at one point that opened something up for you. And then you were just, you know, yeah, you said something beautiful. I'm not quite sure whether I got that correctly when you spoke about, that the training Or it becomes something that you actually have no choice anymore.

You're, you're, you're, you're, you're so drawn to it. That is not a question of, okay, should I do my training today? Or rather, you know, do something else. It's not a question anymore. It's just what you naturally want to do and what you naturally do. Right. And I, and I assume, you know, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

That, that this is one of the consequences of this insight. Okay. And, and, and that again, basically opens up new doors and new possibilities. And yeah, I mean, your, your words were so much more beautiful than mine because you, you described your own experience here. But, maybe we can explore this a little, a little more, you know, maybe from your very personal perspective, how did it show, show up in your life?

What did it mean exactly? And, yeah. And how can we, you know, listening here to this podcast, get a, you said something when you said, don't be afraid of that. Because people might be a little fearful. Okay, what does this actually mean? It's so, it's so unknown. We, it's, it's an, it's a, it's something we have never experienced before.

So maybe, you can take this, this, this fear away from us, or you can make it a little more familiar so that when it comes up, we are welcoming it more. I'm rambling now, rambling now a little bit, but, maybe you get what I'm, what I'm aiming at here. 

Yes, yes. And, and, you know, I was rambling. Now you're rambling.

So together, we'll really put something great together.

In the beginning, for me, it was always. This combination of inside and outside merging, like going out to nature and pulling nature in, and that was more important to me than the technique. At some point in time, when, my original teacher, left, my original teacher was Luke Chan, and he was always so joyful.

And, you know, everything was okay, regardless of what it looked like or what was happening. And as a result, we could do much more than we thought we were capable of. Some point in time when he moved away, I worked with another teacher for a while who was very good as well. And then I was on my own. And on my own, somewhere, it became, during this transitional period, there was a point in time where wall squats were very important.

And we were all doing wall squats. And then someone said, Well, how many wall squats are you doing a day? And someone said, I'm doing, you know, a hundred. And someone said, well, heck, I'm doing 200. And then someone else would say, I'm doing 600 a day. So something shifted and all of us, it wasn't just me, our, our awareness shifted to the outside.

So it became ego and logic and we were competing with one another and that did not work for me. I ended up so outside that I blew both of my knees and I had to spend a great deal of time healing my knees. Before I could even, you know, for years before I could even do wall squats again, and I'm not saying they're bad.

You just can't be in a competition. This isn't an Ironman contest. And somehow it became that. And during that time, my heart or my heart. interconnection, my true self disappeared. Everything became an exercise. And during that period of time, I became ill. And that was my first confrontation with a disharmony that, you know, was frightening for me.

So I couldn't change. I didn't know how. And I thought, well, I just quit. I'm just stopping. I'm never going to practice again. You know, this isn't working anymore. I used to really enjoy it and felt this connection. And it was sort of like my own way of being in the world. And I didn't have that. I lost it.

And I started dealing with all the physiological things with disharmony, and over time, I realized I didn't really quit. I kept practicing, and I thought, why am I practicing? Why am I doing the same thing over and over? It means nothing to me. And then, eventually, I, I met a teacher that shifted that awareness for me, and that's what changed everything.

So Looking back, reflection's always good, right? During the process, when you're in it, it's very challenging because you're in it. But looking back, I realized that everything had moved outside. I was completely stuck in logic, ego, and form, rather than inner connection, space, formlessness. And when you are in that space, that formlessness, of course, There is this emergence of physical body with that space, but everything's easy.

And your physiological body follows because everything is being, moved by your heart lung. No longer your logic and ego. 

Now, here's a few things that I'd like to, point out or, or address. One is that what I, what I notice is that when you were stuck, it was also a time it seems to me where there was a little, inspiration from outside, because, you know, that when you, when you spoke about, and then this master came, I think was master Liu in this case, and he, it was working with him or whatever he said that opened up something.

And I think that's something we shouldn't underestimate because if we just practice by our, by our. Our own all the time and never talk to anyone, you know, who has gone through similar experiences or who's got some other insights that might or might not resonate with us. Then, it's far more difficult to get to the, to the next level and to get new insights and new ideas.

And I think that's also why this podcast in particular, this episode with you is so important because there will be people out there where they say, wow, this is an interesting and they start, you know, dwelling on it and maybe something will move and shift with them. So I think the idea of, being in an inter in, in interaction with someone else, you know, through this podcast or with other teachers or something like that is a very important part of our practice.

It very rarely do we actually, you know, just sit, all by ourselves on a hill for 15 years and then suddenly we move to the next level. It happens to some people, but I think it's more anecdotal rather than, you know, how real life happens. So, that's something I want to encourage everyone now.

Just, you know, keep, you don't have to take on anything that, that you say or I say, or anybody else says, but, you know, have an open mind and an open heart and see whether any of that could be of value to you, and that might, you know, shift something or move you to the next step. Is that something, you know, that you'd also, you know, agree with and say, that is an important part of us moving further, right?

Absolutely. It is. Well, we always talk about our Qigong family. You need a community. And, you know, way back when, when I started, no one, you didn't have people you could share this with because people were separated. There wasn't a great deal of internet connection. And so you would go to these retreats to, to rejuvenate and speak to your friends and see how they progressed.

And also we saw our teachers change too. You know, the more we practice, the more we evolve as human beings. But it's that sense of community that is so important. And it doesn't matter if it's just you and me speaking. Or if you're in a group of 30 people, it's so important that we share what we know, regardless of whatever level you are at, because every single person, it will be received at their level, and then they can take that information and utilize it to help themselves.

So I just think what you are doing and. Brita, it's just phenomenal because it's a way, it's a platform for people to make these connections and have their own community. And I think it's just, it's wonderful. 

Now, the other thing that it just came back to me is, when you It seems to me that, that you realized before that, you know, interaction with Leo happened that there was something missing, that it's, that there is something wrong.

Yet, I want to make sure that, that we all understand you correctly here. You were not going out there because there's a little bit of the risk now people hear our conversation and they say, okay, great, let me now move my practice from the form to the formless. How am I going to do this? It's not like, you, you can't make it a goal as such, right?

It is, it is more a natural progression. Maybe you can, you can explore this a little bit. It doesn't sound to me like you went out there and set the goal and said, okay, from tomorrow on, I'm going to be formless and I'm going to be, have the inner connection. Let me just get this done now. It's, it's not like, it doesn't work like that, right?

That's correct. You know, I didn't go to the top of the mountain and say, okay. I have nothing to worry about. Everyone feed me, bring me food. All I have to do is sit here and do nothing. No. As we said, everything has to be followed by action. So no, it's a natural progression. And I think it's important to talk about it because we are so attached to everything outside of us.

And there's nothing wrong with that. But in the same breath, that is Most of us were either all form. Or we're sitting in our room just meditating. Well, there has to be a balance between the two. And what our Qigong practice offers us is that balance. We're merging the two together, and it's a natural progression.

Just be aware of where you are in that space. So ways to help you with that is to, you know, think, how do I see my practice? What do I think of my practice? Are you thinking every day? Oh, jeez, I have to get up and practice because if I skip a day, I'm in big trouble. That's not helping you. So if you're feeling like that, it just means you have to change the way you do your practice.

You either do a different technique, a different practice, or you or you change something about it so that it becomes new and fresh to you. We don't want to become habitual either, because then we're only connected with form, and formless falls by the wayside. So that balance is always tilted. And I think through our practice, we are doing this all the time and then we come to a place where like, ah, there now, and then boom, it changes again because we're changing.

And. We evolve through different levels or different dimensions, and that's all natural, and not to, I don't want anyone to feel that if they, well, just say, for example, you've been doing lift chi up, forward chi down for five years, or ten years, and that's your major practice, and your health hasn't changed.

Well, then it's time to switch up your practice. It's time to look at it and see, hmm, what does my practice really mean to me? Am I connected? Am I not connected? What's going on? And reach out for a teacher, you know, look at the student hub, watch someone else doing something different and think, think, Oh, maybe, maybe I should, maybe I should switch it up a bit.

And then all of a sudden it becomes very fresh. You go back to your practice, and you're in a different space. You go back to your original practice, whatever that is, and you're in a different space, and there is a different awareness. And that all happens naturally. So I just think we need to be aware of ourselves and not get too caught up in, you know, we're not trying to earn black belts, you know, we're not moving up a ladder.

This is all for us. And Dr. Pang has given us all these tools, and we can pick and choose what works for us. And keep changing and evolving, and that's how we progress. 

Now I'd like to go back a little bit here, Debra, because, in the first third of our conversation, you spoke about three factors and they sounded really important to me.

And we kind of skipped over it because we just continued talking about all these other amazing things, but I'd like to explore them a little bit further so that our audience knows. Thank you. What they mean to you exactly. The first one was the, the trust you said, you spoke about trust your true self.

Now, what does that mean to you? Do

not put your trust in something outside of yourself.

If we do outside of ourselves, then we are connecting with form, ego, and logic when we begin to trust. Now, in the beginning, we don't have a lot of confidence. In ourself. So how do we create trust within ourselves is through our practice, 

right? 

Well, if you continue to practice, then you gain more confidence.

And then you begin to open up your heart and begin to trust yourself. 

Now, I think this is a very important point because, if we take this further, when you say don't trust, yeah, don't trust your true self and don't put your trust into things outside yourself. For me, that includes qi neng qi gong because qi neng qi gong is Just a way of how we, we, approach life in order to get to our true self, but it's not shinengchi gong that holds the power.

It is really our true self that holds the power and our true self. Yeah. We all know how powerful it is because the, whatever controls your heartbeat now and has to sit there and talk to me, that is all coming from. Inside of you. It's not some external thing controlling you or making that for you. So I think this idea of trusting your true self is very important.

Also because I often hear, the words like your trust, your practice. And I think it's true on one level. But only trust your practice because you're behind your practice. It's your true self that is using this practice to achieve the results, right? Or when people say, now trust you can heal or trust if you, you know, do qi neng qi gong or eight hours a day, you can eat, you know, that's all true.

That's all true. But it is, it always comes back to the true self because who does the healing it's, it's, you know, Whatever is powerful within you that does the healing process. So I don't know, correct me if I'm misinterpreting anything here, but that is, you know, what it means to me when you say trust your inner self.

I totally agree. Yes. Okay, 

good. So I've got that right. That's perfect. So the second point, please repeat the second point for me. 

That is like a hurried, a hurried wish or an inner nudge. 

Right, not necessarily a desire, because that's attached to some kind of expectation, but there's something in, like a no choice practice, it's, it's that kind of a feeling.

There's something within you that makes you want to do this. Whether it's Chonungchi Gong, or yoga, or prayer, or whatever it is. It has to be coming from within you. 

For many of us that is easier said than done because I'm sure there's a huge part of the community that does the exercise because we have to do the exercise in order to get better, right?

Or to stay healthy now. So, so let's explore this, this a little bit. Where do you think it comes from? Why do some people have this inner urge to say, this is just what I want to do because yeah, I enjoy it and it's just what I want to do. 

I think there's That's when there is a shift in awareness, and that awareness shift is coming from the inside, not because someone else tells you this is what you should do, or guilt.

Or judgment or anything like that. It's something that comes from within yourself. And, I totally agree that, it's much easier said than done. And I think a lot of things that we, a lot of, everyday things, a lot of, of our life, we spend a great deal of time. Intellectualizing and we understand that intellectually, but applying it is a whole different idea and for me it's, yes, the chin gong that gives me the tools to be able to find.

And like research without trying research myself. 

So I'd like to bounce a thought here with you. Because, you know, from what you describe it, it sounds like basically you wake up and there's an inner knowing that, you know, ah, you want to do the practice and it's just so beautiful and let's do it. Now, would you say if I have an intention behind it, it is as powerful.

So for example, I've got a serious disease that, that, is dragging me down, but I can connect with my life intention. I say, no, I want to be out there in, in nature. I want to enjoy my life. I have a vision for my life and that is what caused me to do my practice, which you say it is as powerful, because it's clearly something different.

But a lot of people for a lot of people that has worked very well. 

That's correct. And I think, personally, I prefer will, I prefer willed focus, and this is my own person, personal interpretation. Yes. When I set an intention, I have an expectation. And that expectation is creating something outside of me.

And that's just my, where it comes from within me. So I just changed intention to willed focus. And for me, that's a, that's something completely different. It has nothing to do with willpower, but there's a willed focus. And then my mental state doesn't think of an expectation. It's like it's already achieved.

Like I had this intention when I first started, you know, I, I felt like, and this was way back, when I first started, I thought, okay, my intention, if this is so powerful as they say, and you can, all these things can happen. And if I continue to do this, I'll be healthy. Well, then I'm going to get rid of all these things.

That are not healthy. And this was before I had a huge dysharmony. These are little things. I thought I'll start small, because I had no confidence, no trust. 

Yes. 

So I'm like, okay, so let's say, I'll just make something up, like I, I have warts on my arm and I thought, okay, I'll see if I can just, if I practice every day, those warts will go away.

So I looked at my calendar and I thought, shouldn't take more than 30 days. So on my calendar, I put in 30 days, these words on my left arm will all be gone in 30 days. Nothing happens. And I said, well, maybe I just need more time. I'll give myself three months in three months. Nothing happens.

And I realized a couple of things. First of all, I had put down when I thought it should resolve itself. So I had, my intention became an expectation. 

Right. 

That expectation was supposed to happen on this particular day. So each time it did not happen, I lost trust. I lost confidence. So I thought, well, that didn't work.

So I threw it out the window and I thought, I'm just going to have a willed focus. And I thought, well, what am I focusing on? And I thought my practice, I'll just focus on my practice. Within a short period of time, the warts were gone and all the other things that I put down should be gone by this date, this date, this date.

Even a year from then, everything went away over time because I wasn't attached to it. 

I had 

unattached, I was aware of it, but unattached to it. And I think that's very important. So and I know intention is important. I just think we should be careful that we're not having an attention with an attachment.

Because

the moment, the moment we add the attachment, the ego automatically comes into play. And the moment the ego comes into play, there's no way you can be connected to your true self because everything is going to be distorted. So, yeah, that's for me is the logic behind why, you know, we have to be very careful what we do there and not be, outcome dependent.

And, we know from a lot of teachers, no matter what the results, they will always be happy, but it doesn't mean that they go through life without Yeah. Intention, without, you know, wanting to create something beautiful. But they're not, they're not, invested in the actual outcome. It's more, it's more the way of being, rather than, looking at a particular result.

Yes. It's a way of life. 

Yes. Yes. It's, it's our 

life. 

Now, the third point, Debra, you spoke about action, now can you, can you explore that a little bit with us, please? 

Well, if we, you know, sit around, even Dr. Pang mentioned something to this effect. We can sit around and wait for someone to take care of us.

But if we do not participate, if we do not take action, how can we expect someone else to do all that for us? 

Right. 

So, That's where the action comes in and for, for us as Qigong practitioners, it's through our practice. 

I would even take this a step further because, you know, I've seen, Qigong practitioners, which are very sincere and practice a lot, but they get their meals three times a day from McDonald's.

So, yeah, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. It's all great that you practice, but, but really, you know, please don't forget that there's other ways to support your life and your health and wellbeing also. So make it a little easier for your true self to transform into this healthy being by getting some proper nutrition into your body.

I'm exaggerating now, but I think, you know, this is all important to take, you know, for me, this is part of the action. 

Yes. I agree. I agree. I agree. I also believe if you really are working from the inside out, there's a natural progression 

where 

everything begins to change. I mean, I, believe me, like, I loved M& M's.

Okay? M& M's are just these, you know, they're just chocolate. No good, nothing. But at some point in time, I couldn't eat the particular, I liked the plain M& M's.

At some point in time, I couldn't eat them anymore. And I was so frustrated. I'm like, why can't I eat these? And I kept trying and I kept getting sick. And then finally, and this is how everything is in our practice. We have to beat it to a pulp before we finally go, Oh, I've had an awareness shift. Now I understand I could no longer eat M& M's.

And then I think what, and then that's different for, I mean, that's a ridiculous thing, but everything began to change. When you become aware of it, then you, you don't fight it. And rather than spend weeks or months trying to repeat the same thing over and over without success. You say, okay, I can no longer do this.

I can no longer eat that food and you accept it. So, with trust, we build confidence and that's how we gain trust. But we also have to appreciate acceptance and be aware. Why we shouldn't have to fight non stop to accomplish something. 

Now, I love how we started with, inner connection, true self, and we ended, we ended with M& Ms, the plain ones, not the peanut ones.

So I think we've really covered a lot of ground, Debra, and, we are way over time, but I don't want to stop before mentioning that we have two other amazing, videos of you and with you on our YouTube channel. One is obviously the teacher's portrait, that we will link into. into the show notes and the other one is a video called the day I met Dr.

Pang because you were one of the fortunate Westerners who's actually ever met Dr. Pang who was at his center. So that's a beautiful another video for people to explore and to learn from your experience there. Deborah, it was a pleasure to talk to you. Let me just check what you're teaching these days.

Are you back home or are you teaching international groups or, you know, who can basically benefit from your, your wisdom and your teachings. 

I teach everything now online. And even my Huyuan Qi Therapy, everything is online. So I work with people all over the world, according to whether their time zone fits with mine.

Right. Right. Perfect. So we put your website, of course, also, and, you just said it yourself. qi gong teacher, you're also a Huyuan Qi therapist. So I think you've got the best skills. skillsets possible to support people on their journey and, with a health and wellbeing. So thank you very much, Deborah.

It was so nice to talk to you this evening here for me on Cyprus and I know it's the morning for you. It would be lovely to reconnect, you know, in, you know, sometimes later next year, this year, and maybe record another episode if people are interested in that. 

Thank you so much for thinking of me.

It's been a pleasure speaking with you. It's just been wonderful. Thank you. 

We trust you enjoyed this conversation and we invite you to subscribe to our podcast so we can stay in touch and notify you of future episodes. We will end today's episode with the Eight Verses Meditation performed by Qigong teacher Katrien Hendrickx

[Meditation]

To

get your free ebook on the eight versus meditation, please check the show notes. Pillow.