One day, Eugenio Giusti said to himself, This is it. I don't want to be serious anymore. Life needs to be fun. And he started his journey, moving from a life based on control and fear, to a life based on flow and trust. My name is Torsten Lueddecke. And this is the Wisdom Qigong Podcast.
Welcome to the show, Eugenio. I'm very happy to have you here. It took us a little bit of time to get together. But I think, I'm very happy because you are, your, your name gives it away. You are Italian by origin. You live in New York. You're currently in Italy back at your family house. And that already gives me a good, starting point for the conversation because you said you're going to talk about your life and how that Hao Gong, you know, kind of mirrors the development of your life or your life's journey.
So let's dive right into that, Eugenio.
First of all, thank you for inviting me to be to share this experience of my life. So basically the idea is that I, in my life, I was trying to be, I was actually, how can I say, I was played by the, by perfectionism. So it was always an anxiety of always doing the best possible.
And, that eventually in my career as a, as a college teacher, it became really my pattern. And my pattern always was to be always in a future mode, so I could do things, I could organize, I could, and, but nobody was really, anything that I really do would always be really perfect. So there was a time in my life where I realized through that actually being mostly excellent was perfect.
Before, I would say, oh, well, I'm mostly, I'm not excellent, but now mostly excellent is just fine, perfect. In that process. And I realized also that I needed someone to live in my heart and not in my head. That was really my, my big shifting point, realizing that I was always in my head with my topics, with my, my thoughts, with my organizing things all the time, but I never lived in the present.
I was always in kind of a future mode. So I said to myself, well, you really need to get out of your head and be in your heart. Now, how this connects me with Zhineng Qigong very recently is because I know, as we say in Zhineng Qigong, you know, the, the process of the chi is an up spiral. So it goes up and up and up.
And that was also my experience. I didn't, you know, I didn't reach Zhineng Qigong right away. But through the years, I, I end up with the intention to really be more in the present and live with what I felt. I came also to the conclusion that I really needed to have fun. Life needs to have fun, and it's interesting because when I was saying that with my colleagues at the college, they were like, What are you talking about?
Fun? Fun is not serious. Not exactly. I said, I don't want to be serious, so But your students, but your students must have
loved
the idea, right? My students said, well, actually interesting because my student on one side, they were trying to follow the pattern, you know, always been serious because he's a very high class kind of college.
And I was trying to, to lead them into having fun. So I said, when you come here and you have to say, You know, oh, how you doing, Italian? This was Italian class. Say, how you doing? They would say, oh, I'm okay, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, all negative. I'm stressed. So I said, flip it over. Say, I'm stressed, but actually I'm okay.
You know, all is good. So that kind of shift was really fundamental for my life and probably for the people that I was teaching to. So as I go along, then I come to, to Zhineng Qigong through the experience of my teacher, Richard Clegg, that probably you know, and Deborah, Deborah and Richard Clegg, I studied Zhineng Qigong with them because they came to my college and so they were teaching there.
And at that time I was doing yoga and other practices. So I moved into. regular, you know, other type of Qigong. And then when Richard came to Kokolulu and all that experience, then I just followed them. But then I realized how in learning more about the theory of Zhineng Qigong, I really realized how serendipity.
So, you know, Richard introduced me to Zhineng Qigong was really telling me what I really wanted to, to hear, which is, it's unified, right? It's not the yin and yang necessarily, it's before the separation, and I truly believe that unity is what really connected my heart with my, with my brain, you know, that my, my, my low, my middle dantian with my upper dantian is really what really makes me united, one.
And so that was my point.
Now, when I'm listening to you, it sounds a bit, a little bit like this, as if you knew it all along, deep down. And Zhineng Qigong only just gave you an opportunity to uncover that. It doesn't, didn't seem to me like, Oh, this is completely new. It seems like this was waiting, was sleeping inside you.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah, absolutely. Zhineng Qigong for me is the last step and the highest step in this journey. So when recently, Master Jianshe was in New York and I had the gift that he came to give classes into my apartment in New York because we were supposed to be outdoor and the weather wasn't, wasn't good.
So he came and then he started talking about Bambini Heart. You know, and talking about how we should go, you know, let go and, and go into the heart and, and experience like little children. And then I said, wow, this is exactly what I said to myself. You know, you just need to have fun. You can't just waste your time just thinking of fixing or wanting or doing all of that.
No, just be in the moment and be with it. And so Zhineng Qigong is really what brings me there and gives me somewhat a theory and a practice to be in it. You know, now, every day, because I'm also retired and I have all the time I want, I spend an hour, an hour and a half in the morning doing the practice.
And to me, it's the best time of the day. It's like, wow, you know what I mean? I can do this, I don't have to run away. And, and there is a lot of learning within it. I really, I'm really, really, it's really, It's really deep how I realize, for example, how to relate to pain. For me, one of the biggest discoveries also, not to have fun, of course, but also when I do practice, you know, how do I relate to the different pains that my body may have?
Should I, can I try to fix them? Can I try to, you know, force them? Can I try to get afraid of it? No, I can stay with it. Like we stay with it, keep the practice, let your mind go, as, you know, Joshua would say song, song, relax, relax, and then you realize magically that things morph and they disappear. And you say, wow, what happened?
This is like a fairy tale. You know, Mini China Fairytale, and this is exactly what happened.
Now this is, funny enough, a recurring theme in the last episodes I have been recording. So I'm interested to look a little bit into that, why you think that happens. So, you know, what you're basically describing is you, you, you stay with the pain.
You're not resisting it. You're not trying to, overrule it or fix it or anything. You just staying with it and tell me more about, you know, how comes it's transforming.
Right. Because, because my, my, A mode would be, you know, react, be afraid and try to fix it. You know, I, you know, make it disappear somewhat.
So do the practice, do this, do that. This is my attitude in life in general. So do things to solve problems and go ahead and keep on going this way. I'm realizing that if I don't have the fear, if I don't, you know, kind of feed into my fear and I stay with it. I mean, it's not, you know, an emergency, you know, I mean, so I can just stay there, look at my neck that is sore, feel it, move it, but I realized that the more I think about it, even when I think and try to solve it, like they would say, you know, the Qi goes, where the mind goes, the Qi flows.
So if I don't think too much and I try to let my mind flow, play or create imagery, then I go back to it and it's not there anymore. I said, wow, what happened? You know, this is like magic. I don't know, but it's a good magic. You know what I mean? And the idea ultimately at the base of all of it is that you need to trust is what I would call some sort of faith that you let go and the universe will send you the right answer, whatever answer.
So there is lots of acceptance there that is essential, you know, to what it is.
Now, that is an interesting thing that I just would like to pick up when you say, you know, we all know the saying, or most of us know the saying, where the, where the mind goes to, she follows the flow. And this makes a lot of sense, in particular, if we think about intention.
You know, you set an intention and then the Qi flows. Now, at the same time, you know, there is an inherent intelligence within Qi. So if you, if what you do is you activate the Qi through your exercise, the Qi naturally knows where it needs to go in order to, you know, to give you progress and to give you the healing or deal with whatever you need to deal with.
Now, sometimes In my experience, that might be very surprising because you might do Zhineng Qigong, because you have a pain, you know, you gave the example of the back. Now, even though you do the Zhineng Qigong, maybe the qi is not operating upon the back because the qi knows. There is another thing that might be more.
important at that point and it operates, you know, in that train. I have an example at the moment, you know, of a, of a woman that's very close to my heart. You know, she was doing a lot of exercises with the purpose, you know, to get her, her vision back and nothing really, you know, moved. And now it was discovered she actually had had quite a serious heart issue and, and, and the doctors looked at her and said, well, wow, we have no idea.
You know, you're in such a good state, given the issue you have with the heart, we don't know what you've done that you are so healthy still. So my interpretation here is. That the Qi knew, well, you know, don't worry too much about getting a better eyesight at this moment. There is something more serious going on.
So it's a little off topic, which I'm, to do what you've just told, but it came up and I wanted to share it, you know, because I think it's also important to understand that it's not just about setting the intention. You know, sometimes it's just great to activate the Qi and let the Qi do the work.
But exactly what what actually what you're saying. I fully understand and share because I think what the point is that when I said the intention. I have to let go because often we think of setting intention and the intention, I also do, okay, I have the intention to fix the problem on my neck, and I keep on insisting that I have the intention.
It doesn't work that way. You have to set the intention, like a prayer, for example, and send it to the universe. And whatever the universe, or the chi in this case, sends to you, needs to be accepted. Because one, the moment of acceptance is actually the most difficult one, because, you know, you have to accept things that maybe your mind thinks that is not correct, or is out of your intention.
No, it will be revealed to me that that is actually the only possible truth and the best truth possible. You know, and that's why I think that the process is really the awareness, the intention, and then the acceptance. And the acceptance will bring the transformation, whatever that will be. As you say, you know, this woman probably with the eyes and then it goes into the problem is actually somewhere else in her body.
Exactly. But that's a fantastic revelation because she wasn't aware. And so the same thing happens to me. The beauty of not seeing that after practicing and doing it 15 minutes, 20 minutes, after that you see, oh, wow, it's not there anymore. And so that seems to me not that I, I, I, I, I manipulate the situation.
It was actually the situation manipulates me. You know, the universe manipulates me. Now I'm trying to fix the universe. So there is really, to me, as a, you know, a person with a Catholic upbringing, there is a very strong element of faith that you have to have in the Qi in the universe, whatever you want to call it, in the spirit, whatever works for, you know, for me, we're saying, you know, some sort of faith and though I'm not, you know, particularly Catholic or practicing and so on and so forth, but that's my tradition.
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Hunyuan Lingtong,
let me go a little back to where we started, because, yeah, it's quite extraordinary to meet a man like you who says, well, the first thing that comes up when we talk about Zhineng Qigong is fun. Most of us would first think about healing, you know, that, for obvious reasons, a lot of us serious people would also think about consciousness and, our personal development.
But, you know, to come up with, yeah. It's fun. That's quite unusual. Although, you know, when you think about it, it's, it's absolutely not because you were talking about Jianshe and I remember one of his favorite sayings, at least, you know, when I met him first was he was always talking about sunshine mind.
He says that everything is beautiful when you have a sunshine mind. And, and I, so that is, you know, having fun, enjoying yourself, that is, great. And I think it resonated so much with you because you didn't, allow yourself, to go through life that way, huh? So tell us a little bit about this transformation and what it means to you and whether this was tough because you know there might be a lot of people sitting there saying well how can you have fun i've got this issue i've got that problem and this is not going well yeah maybe this man is very lucky uh but i i can't have fun because my life doesn't just you know grant that
Right.
I understand that. And I can say that maybe I don't have major illnesses or problems, you know, so, but for example, when I was in Austin, I was there twice, you know, in the program, I see that the vast majority of people would come In the program at the beginning with a kind of a sad face, but the end of it, they all smile, and they're having a somewhat of a good time their own way, you know, and I remember last time I was there for the certification.
I there was a moment when I really was. make believe I was a plane like if I was five years old, as I was trying to run to class on time because I was late, you know? And so that's, that's, I think this is really a healing process. You know, maybe some people can do it better than others, but if I can let go and I can go back to my child mind of being in the present And I play with what I have around me, you know, then I see that for me is definitely transformative, but I have a friend of my dear friend of mine that came to Austria, you know, and she's still with us, you know, practicing now all the time.
And I remember when I suggested to come, she was in my, you know, she had a lot of physical issues and then mine was always like a little sad. Now every time I see her because we have sessions all the time on Zoom, you know, she's always smiles. You know what I mean? So that's the transfer. It's a fundamental transformation because even if she's I still have the pain But I smile to it.
My pain is not the same, you know, I don't press it on it I make it lighter. So i'm not saying that and in a way I think I will allow the body and the money to heal Instead of oppressing and compressing it and preventing because I want I must I do I have and all of that I need and all of that, you know, that that's my point You know, transformation and growth
and how does this show up in your, in your life with your friends?
You know, do people, re recognize that, oh, but by the way, when you did the transformation, you were still, working as a college teacher, right?
No, I have been, I've been retired for three years now.
Yes.
When I, yeah, no, no. When I begin the very, the very beginning. Oh yeah. I was in the middle of the pressure of the college and the life of the administration, which is not, you know, that's the bad side.
of being a professor. You know, the good side is you deal with students and you have a good time with all this young mind. But the bad side, I thought the administration, the research, the publishing and all that. So no, yeah, that's when I, when I really had this moment, I said, I need to really live with my heart and not in my head.
Yes, it was.
And that happened before you met Zhineng Qigong or?
This was all, that was actually years before. Then I started my practice that went into yoga because at that time I was really doing gym and bodybuilding, all these kinds of things. And then that was really compacted me. No, no, no. I say I need to flow.
The other point for me is. In my life now, I just need to flow. And so the idea is that I started coming from gym and bodybuilding into yoga. And then yoga was still not really letting me fully flow. And then I discovered Qigong. And then I discovered, you know, Qigong, which I think is the ultimate for me.
It definitely is.
The
best of, it's my direction. I don't have any other goal at this point in my life. They just go in that direction and my intention every day is to flow because my tendency is to, you know, not to. You know, so working on the possibilities of flowing.
So let me ask you that question. Do you miss being miserable?
Well, no, definitely. You know, I am very grateful for what I did because I was there for 30 years and it could have been a better place for me because my little department, my Italian department was colleagues and we were nice and with each other, we could, you know, a little community. Yeah. And I have beautiful students, which are, some of them are still in touch now.
But, no, no, no, the, the academic environment. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, really not because it's all in the head. See, I tell you a little story. There was a student of mine that I'm still in touch with. She came in, she was petite, you know, from Kenya, with a big bow flower on her head, with a smile, you know, 180 degree smile, and she was adorable.
And she came to my class, and one day she was sad, and she said, I said, Oh, what's going on? Why are you sad? Oh, yeah, I know, because I go around campus and I smile all the time, and people, people still they think I'm crazy. And I said, no, no, you continue to smile. Don't worry about that. You are the good one.
They are like the one they have issues. And they do, you know, my students come, used to come to me and they say, okay, tell me what to do. I do it well. And you give me a good grade. And I say, it doesn't work that way. You know, I come here, you know, I give you something to work on. You work it, we do it together.
We discuss it. And then if the college wants a grade, we can even give you a good grade. It doesn't matter
because
the education is my purpose, you know, getting things out of you. As a young mind, you know, and build your own self awareness, a self determination. And that's why also, this switch a little bit into Zhineng Qigong, but I think it's beautiful about Qigong in general, Zhineng Qigong, is that I am my own healer.
I don't have to ask anybody else, you know. Yes, doctor is there, this and that, fine. I can go and check, do tests and stuff. But I am the one that makes the decision about my body. And that's fundamental to me.
Now in an interesting way, you have actually gained what you've been trying to gain all your life.
I mean, I'm, you have to correct me if I'm saying bullshit here, but, what I understood is that in the first decades of your life, you were all about control in a way, you know, being successful, doing things, right. Being anxious about doing things, right. This incredible pressure, this is a control thing, but you could, you could never control anything.
Really. And now, you know, by letting go and by discovering basically the, the power you hold it within you through Qigong, through Zhineng Qigong, you actually found that very control that you were always looking for, but not in a. But, but in, in, in, as you said, you spoke about it in a trusting way. So it's, it's not you consciously taking control.
It is you being in control because you know, of the wisdom of your own body, you know, of the wisdom of the Qi field, you, you know, that you can, make sure you are healthy. You are happy. You are having a good day. So in an interesting way, the thing that you've always been seeking and could never find by trying to grasp control, you finally found, right?
And the control has become flow.
Right.
That's my big switch is like to try to control because control was based on fear.
Yes.
Now, flow is based on trust.
Yes.
Whatever that is, the acceptance of what is, is the flow. And that's the only, and I can see the result of the flow. And of course, I still keep some fears for the future, because I'm still human, and I'm still here in this human dimension.
But at the same time, Time I can work on the process of letting it go and just see a flow, you know It was an early meditations when when I start meditation and I was so always so agitated and I said, oh my god They said you can stay five minutes, you know meditating. So are you crazy me five minutes still I can't you know, I'm like All the time.
But then I did a walking meditation, I just happened to walk along a stream and there was all this bubbling and I said, Oh, that's my flow. That's what the people that come from are the people that talk through the streams in the woods. And that's how I flow, you know, and so I need to reconnect with what I call my people or the universe.
So that, that, that's my, and that, and that exactly what Zhineng Qigong is up for me to do. And when you
talk, when you mentioned earlier, the example of the student that comes to your office and says, tell me what I need to do so I can get, can get a good grade. And you said, that's not how it works. You're basically explaining the same thing because, what you were basically suggesting to the students is a student, let's enjoy the beauty of the Italian language.
Let's learn it together. Let's have fun while we're doing it. And then at the end, you know, there might be a great or not a great, but it's not outcome dependent. Let's, let's enjoy the actual learning of the language. Now, when you talk about the flow, now you're basically saying, let's enjoy a life. Let's enjoy the beauty of life and let's trust in the flow, but we are not depending on the outcome.
So the outcome might be this and the outcome might be that. And, now I'm back to you and she. Another thing that he always says is now, whatever the result is, you will see him smile and say, Oh, it's also good. Although it might not be the thing that he wanted. If he misses a train, he won't say, damn, I missed the train.
He would say, Oh, that's also good. No, because then I can spend more time in the station or I can have a coffee or something like that. So the outcome doesn't matter to him. He just, He just, you know, whatever life brings up, he's perfectly happy with it.
Right. And in fact, I know this is what I call plan B.
Okay. Plan A is what I make, you know, with my mind, the planning, the organizing. And plan B is what counts. So if I'm able to think about a plan B and the plan B, I'm okay with it, then there is no problem.
You
know, there is no agitation, there is just being with the flow, whatever comes, you take it and thinking and appreciating, and that's probably the best things could ever happen to you, to me,
it's
the best thing that, you know, even just waiting for a bus, for example, you know what I mean, to be late.
And then there is a bus D and bus A, I have to take it, and I say, okay, well, how long do I have? I have 15 minutes. Okay. Let me stay here. What is, what happened if I come home late? Okay. What's the big deal? You know what I mean? I can do something else. I can stay here and look at the sky while I'm waiting for the bus, you know what I mean?
And then the bus pops up, you know, that's a fantastic thing that you let go and then the bus comes, the one you need. And then you get home on time and everything is fine, you know what I mean? But you need to be on that state of mind of letting it go and let, you know, the chi of the universe work their magic.
Because that's what we are. We're just a bunch of energy that floats with all the rest, you know what I mean? And so, you know, just, be with it, you know, also we are human. So, you know, there's a, a way of acceptance that we are limited. We think with one brain, you know, we have a brain and a heart. So that's also a process of acceptance because I could go in the direction of, Oh my God, we are so human.
We are so bad, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, I'm human. I'm, you know, I come from a source. I'm in this dimension. I think I have some sort of service to do in this dimension. I will go and I will, after a while, I will go back to whatever dimension and that will be great. As long as I'm here, I'll try to do my best, you know?
Yes, yes.
With myself first and then with everybody else around me. That's why I also, I'm doing now, I'm certified. I'm also doing some sessions with friends and things. And, you know, I can see, you know, I bring these ideas to them and some, the practice, you know, how to relax, how to, to expand, how to flow, you know, and this seems to be quite receptive.
You know, to that.
So when you said you're certified, you're talking about being a certified therapist, right? Because we didn't mention that earlier, but when you spoke about Austria and the time you spent there, that was all part of the therapy program, correct?
At the beginning, I went to Austria. I was already was a student, Richard Clegg.
Yes.
And then at the beginning, I went to Austria to see in the healing group.
Okay.
To be healed. So I could see if I liked it, if I wanted to continue. And that's when I made my decision that I really wanted to continue. And fine, you know, if I don't have necessarily, I don't have the need for a certification, because I'm not making it into a career.
But at the same time, why not? So it may be better to have it. So the year, the following year, when I went to Cyprus in the spring, and then the following year, I went to Austria last year, in 2023. And that's when I certified.
And, I mean, you've, you've got some great skills because you've been teaching all your life.
So it's, I think it's great to combine that and to say, well, why not? I had these insights in my life and I had these learnings and the Hunyuan Qi therapy program, you know, let me share that with whoever wants that. And, and it's, that's the way it is. We meet people in our lives and some people are at a stage where they're totally receptive to these ideas and we can, we can tell that, you know, they want to move to the next level.
And then there are other people where, you know, the time is just not right or they have other things that they prioritize, which is just just as fine, right?
I have my journey to, to walk. If you, anybody wants to walk it with me. More than happy. I like people. I like to do it. People, you know, but if I my walk is my walk, even with my partner, you know, my walk is my walk.
Likely it's also walking a similar path so we can walk together, which is more fun than just always be alone. But if I have to be by myself, that's what it is. You know, it's my thing, you know, and, and so, you know, if I, I can have fun with, with a group, what I can have fun by myself. They told me when I was a baby, they put a blanket with some toys and I was playing with them, you know, on the blanket as a little kid, you know, if there is another friend that we can share, it's even better.
It's more fun to dance in a group than dance by yourself, as far as I'm concerned. So whenever I have, you know, whenever I know a possibility, I try to share with other people.
Now Eugenio, have we missed any of your, you know, any of the things you would like to share with us today? Is there any, any point that you feel, Oh, this is something else I would like to mention?
No, I think my, my points are kind of basic. I don't have to, you know, I don't have to, the only things I could, I would say I was mentioned, I just, you know, now that I'm doing some sessions with people is really rewarding because they're mostly friends and there is no You know, I just done for fun again, you know, because I like you and I like to share with them and it is friends, family, people that, you know, I found here and my neighbors, you
know,
offer to them, you know, do you want to have a session?
Do you want to relax together, you know, and usually my sessions are like, you know, there is a conversation.
So,
you know, as a master, Leo would say, you know, there's a conversation and then eventually there is the actual, you know. Relaxing technique that I've learned through and usually they say they like it.
At least they want they come back. I guess That's fine. I don't have any agenda beyond that section.
And you do them in English or also in Italian?
I do. It depends on the person. If the person understanding is English, fine. Right now I'm in Italy and most of the people. And I do hear that, you know, the people that connect here, they don't really speak English.
So we can do perfectly, you know, and you know, that we have a probably Richard mentioned that at the end of this month, we have any retreat here, you know, she got rich in my village. So many, many of the people there will not understand English. So either I'll be the translator or the one that organized a session that devoted to Italian.
And some other will, you know, speak English, so that would be the other part. So it's kind of fun.
Very good. Very good. Well, thank you very much, Eugenio. That was lovely to hear from you. And, I honestly, I think it's very refreshing to start with the whole idea of your having fun in life. It is so fundamental to Zhineng Qigong.
But we don't often make it the main topic because there's usually, with something else that is the focus of a conversation, although I must say, I mean, with most of the people we talk to in the environment, we can see they're having fun. Most genetic practitioners go through life, you know, with a smile on their face and you can tell that they, that they have.
been on that journey. It's just that they don't, express it that way necessarily. So I think it's great to bring this, into our consciousness that this is the essence of Zhineng Qigong, because, you know, a happy mind is a relaxed, mind and a relaxed mind has a relaxed body. And if the body is relaxed, the qi can flow and there are no blockages.
So it's actually quite simple. So anybody listening who wants to learn Qigong but doesn't want to put any work into it, just be happy and smile all day and you can skip all the courses and classes.
Absolutely, absolutely. It was really, yeah, exactly. Let's have fun together.
Okay. Well, thank you very much, Eugenio.
I hope you have a fantastic time in Italy. Good luck with the workshop, the retreat. We will leave, of course, all your details in the show notes so people know how to get in touch with you if they would like to. And then, yeah, I'm looking forward to maybe meeting you again in one of the future episodes and hear more from you.
Yes. Thank you. Thank you for everything.
We trust you enjoyed this conversation and we invite you to subscribe to our podcast so we can stay in touch and notify you of future episodes. We will end today's episode with the eight verses meditation. Performed by Zhineng Qigong teacher, Katrien Hendrickx.
Enjoy.
[Meditation]
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