Renowned Qigong teacher John Millar makes a bold statement. As Westerners, we can't teach Qigong the way the Chinese teach and be as effective. Now, why does he say that and is it a good idea to adapt the teachings? And what are the things he feels need to be addressed? Let's explore this together. My name is Torsten Lueddecke and this is the Wisdom Qigong Podcast.
And today he would like to focus a little bit on, the difference between teaching, as a Western teacher in the Western world compared to being a Chinese teacher.
I think the thing for me is that I've come to realize over the years that as Westerners, We can't teach in the way that the Chinese teach and be as effective.
Oh, I can feel myself climbing on a soapbox straight away. I, I, I, I struggle a little bit with some of the, ideas that exist within Qigong. I've never been good with authority. So the idea of hierarchies of teachers has always bothered me. And I was actually talking to one of the people I'm working with within the Qigong Academy this morning and, he was saying, who were your most inspiring teachers?
And I said about a game that we play on the teaching program, where we use the idea of Taiji ball, but we stand in a circle and then we pass the Taiji ball. We pass the ball to the next person who then leads the group, and then passes it round, passes it round, passes it round. And we had somebody come in who was observing from the university, who practices Qigong.
And meditation has never taught before and she's not wanting to be in the circle and then she relaxes and joins the circle and then the ball is passed to her and she's never led a group before and it was just mind blowingly beautiful. How somebody who has never thought about teaching before can walk in and just hold the space and share an idea, share a movement in such a way as everybody follows, everybody engages, everybody hears.
And there was something so honest and so real and so authentic about it that it was just mind blowing. And then I reflect on some of the amazing Chinese teachers that I work with and I go, It's just different. It's not better. It's just different. So yeah, it's, I, I, I think, I think we should embrace, our, our ability to share Qigong with others.
So yeah,
now, now, when you say that, it automatically comes to mind that I know that in traditional Qigong, you have a lot of these ideas of hierarchy. And I know that, you know, also, there was a secrecy about Qigong. It's like only if you're like the top master, you know, certain things. And then if you're a little lower on the ladder, you know, other things.
Things that the students know very little, but Dr. Pang really broke with this tradition. I mean, he was the first one, Dr. Pang, for those who don't know, he's the founder of Zhineng Chigong, was the first one that said, this is for everyone. And, to my understanding, you know, he did exactly what you just described.
He broke the whole hierarchy thing. And he also didn't call himself master. He calls himself teacher. So, so he's the, this, this humble guy that, set up the whole system that people are now, you know, unfortunately worshiping in a way because he's been just so amazing in his work, but it's not his intention and it's not a necessity.
And also, yeah, it depends on the master you're working with now in Zhineng Qigong. Some of them are very clear about, you know, that we're all eye to eye. Others have a little more ego, maybe, I don't know, and wanna be seen as, something special. But I think that the, the, the theory really in Zhineng, Qigong is to break exactly that pattern that you described.
Yeah. Yeah. A absolutely. And, and the, and this is in no way a criticism of, teachers who like to be considered to be special. I think that we need to separate the idea of a teacher as somebody who can teach us things, from the idea of somebody who is inspirational in the, in the way that they live. A teacher doesn't need to be inspirational in the way that they live.
Actually some of my most interesting people that I've studied with have been quite deeply flawed, and I've learnt a massive amount from them, but I wouldn't want to be like them. I've just learned a lot from them. And I think the separation of those is important. But yeah, absolutely. And the tradition of hierarchy is also interesting.
If you look at the actual evolution of Qigong, and the idea that the term actually only really came into prominence in the 1950s. Prior to this, we have got practices such as the Daoyin practices. And the evolution of the practice seems to have three aspects to me. So we've got the spiritual traditions related to Daoism, Buddhism, arguably Confucianism, won't go there, don't think it's as impactful as we pretend it is.
We've got the health traditions or the healing traditions within Chinese medicine, and we've got the martial traditions. And a lot of the work within Qigong combines these three in some way. I think, I've never studied a system of Qigong that hasn't got all three present in some way. And when you put the martial piece in there, then the hierarchy makes sense.
But the, but the hierarchies and the secrecy that we see within the traditions don't make sense within the healing practice. They don't make so much sense within the spiritual practice, but they do make sense in the martial practice. Okay.
I've never seen it like that, but you've certainly got a point there.
Yes, absolutely. I can see. Yeah. Now that brings us to, you know, to the, the, the starting point where you said that you feel you have to adapt your teachings or the way you are compared to a Chinese teacher. So let's explore that a little further, please.
Yeah, there was, there was a wonderful conversation I had, Liu and Ling were staying at my house, this is many years ago, and Ling said to me, I need to be better at speaking English, so people can understand me more.
And I said, I never want you to get better at speaking English. Because if you speak English really, really cleanly and really clearly, everybody will think they understand what you're saying. When you don't speak good English, everybody's going, what do they mean? And what it does is it creates a space for us to think about things, a space for us to learn.
The same is true, there's studies in, text written in really clean print, like Times New Roman or Courier New, or, you know, one of these ones, compared to something that's written in one of the flowerier prints and looking at the retention levels of the information. And when, weirdly, when it's more difficult to read, the retention of the information is stronger.
Now, as, as a native English speaker, teaching in an English speaking country, I have the ability to have immense clarity in the way that I speak, and that limits. What I'm capable of.
You could always try a sexy French accent or something.
Yeah, I could try that one. Yeah. Yeah, let's not go there.
But, but I, I totally get what you're saying, because at the end of the day, we've seen many students participating in workshops with teachers from China, where the Chinese teacher doesn't speak very good English and the student doesn't understand English very well either.
So they basically get very little of the actual information, but it is more than enough because their unconscious, their mind knows what they need to understand. So even if they make up stuff that is not exactly what the teacher said, it can be extremely helpful and can take them to the next level.
While, you know, if we are talking the same level and we are very clear in our language, it means that there is no space for me to come up with I already know, you know, deep from deep down, because I'll, I'll strictly follow your thought rather than, enabling me to come up with my own ideas, right?
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We're, we're very caught up, especially around the ideas of teaching. We're very caught up in process and accuracy, but actually Qigong is not a practice that you learn. It's a practice with which you unlearn. And so we need to create the space to recognize what it is that we want to release.
Right. We need to create the space to find our freedom. And everybody's freedom, everybody's path to that freedom looks different. So working with someone from outside of our culture immediately opens up perspective. It immediately makes us go, wow, that's amazing. But working from somebody from within our culture, that's a different skill.
How, how to create a space for people to learn. And, you know, these weird things that when you're in a class, and, a tip if you're teaching, never ask people what they got from the class. It's horrible. Because what happens is you get one person says, oh, this happened and it was amazing, you know, and I've had this situation going on for years and it's now resolved.
And you have somebody else over here going, I just feel so relaxed and everybody gives a different answer.
And
the first time that I did this, I came out of there just feeling completely fried. I just couldn't cope. How was I going to go in next week and do all of these different things for all of these different people?
And then you realize that we don't. What we do is we, we create a safe space for people to find their, their, their way to freedom. And that's the piece that I think as Western teachers, we need to. continually refine and continually adapt.
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Hunyuan Lingtong Now,
how can you do that? I mean, given that, you're not coming from a mysterious country with a mysterious culture like China, you don't sound Chinese. So immediately there's a different, yeah, people view you in a different way than a Chinese teacher. So how can you open that space for people now as a Westerner?
I think for me, one of the big tricks is simplicity. One of the pieces that sort of led to the ideas that I have is I spent just over a decade working in the corporate sector with Qigong, weirdly not around wellbeing, it was mainly leadership and communication skills. And so some of the clients that you work with are so far away from what Qigong would be.
So what you have to do is you need to find a simple way of expressing something that has commonality. So, so you need to find ways of being really, really clean and really simple in the idea that you're expressing, and not too detailed. So, one of the pieces that you'll hear me bang on about regularly is my, is my way of view, of viewing Qi.
So I will always point back to the etymology of the character, how the actual Chinese character of Qi evolved. Up to about 250 BC B Yeah, about two, about 250 BC It was simply three lines, and it was vapor rising to form clouds. So that's, that's mystical. It's esoteric. It's horrible. What does that mean?
That means that any invisible force that creates change. Qi, you can't see the vapor, but you can see the clouds. So then you can take that idea of Qi is any invisible force that creates change. And you can say if, if you look at the trees moving, you can't see the wind, but you can see the effect of the wind.
Therefore, wind is in the category of Qi. You can't see electric moving through cables, but you can feel the effect when you hold them. Don't do that. , that's cheap. So now what we've done is we've created an accessible way into the idea of what she is for people. And then we can start to work from that place.
And one of the other skills we must have is listening. We must be able to listen to the people. And I don't mean just, just with the ears. We must teaching to me as it should always be a dialogue. There's always interaction between yourself and the group that you're leading. And that interaction will also tell you when you have made something too complicated, or when you're just in that pocket of simplicity that people can go, I've never thought of it like that, that's helpful.
And it's the same with the practice. Do we want to stick to the standard scripts? I think we need the standard scripts. But we also need to be able to adapt them to the audience at the time. And I think these are skills that we need to be really, really constantly honing.
And is there not a risk? I mean, I'm just putting out that question.
If everybody worked like you now and adapts according to his or her own liking, that we've got like 15, 000 different forms of Qigong, and not all of them are necessarily better, but because, you know, my idea of how I would do something isn't necessarily as refined as it was, you know, initially, set up by Dr.
Pang, who has put a great deal of thought into all of that. So, yeah, I also see a risk. Well, I love the idea, but I see like, oh my God, everyone's just doing what they want. How do you see that?
Yeah, there is definitely a risk. But at the same time, somebody described it a bit like jazz. We need to know the thing that we're improvising on before we can be effective at improvising on it.
So the thing that, that enables us to work in this way is to have both a level of Gongfu that means that you know where you're coming from, a level of authenticity within your practice, but also, and probably most importantly of all, the humility to keep on refining your practice, the, the, the humility to keep returning to your core practice and the humility to go, you know what, I got it wrong.
It's been very interesting. When I first, when I first met Jianshe, for some reason, and I've got no idea how this happened, there was the point, the Qihu point was misplaced in, in the way that I learned. And so I spent a number of years teaching Qihu as being, actually teaching it as a lung point, which I should have known, and I didn't.
The more I think about it, the more stupid the whole situation was. And then I found out that I'd done it wrong. So I came into the next class and I said, Look guys, I'm sorry, I've got this wrong. This is where it is, let's practice with this. And the thing that was interesting was that people turned around and said, It doesn't feel any different.
Because the intention is still the same. But the physical accuracy, there's a point that it's useful and a point that it isn't. So yeah, there's, there's kind of that piece there. But yeah, absolutely. I, I believe that we need to have a solid practice that underpins any teaching that we do. And we, and we need to really understand what that practice is.
Now, this is a, this is an A greaum, topic, a great question you're, you're raising here, because I know there are kind of two different views, in the community. One is, you know, likes to be as detail conscious as possible to do it exactly the right way, which I'm sure has its merits because there is a reason for it.
This point, you know, the acupuncture point is here and not somewhere else, so why not use it and, and press it and push it. At the same time, there are some fundamental ideas in Zhineng Qigong that are the core and that are everything. And you don't even need to do any exercises. You know, if you get the, if you get the mindset right.
Yeah. So these are the two different views and I think both have their merits and both are correct. In their own, in their own way. So, so if I'm, you know, if I was asking these, these questions now, so I kind of could totally align with you. If, you know, if the understanding of the basic ideas of Qineng Zhigong are in line with, you know, what Zhineng Zhigong actually is.
Okay, up until 2020, I've been very reluctant to doing online work. I've got my own personal junk around online from my previous career, and I was very reluctant. And then when we went into lockdown, I was fortunate enough to be promoted by an organization for, that supports, healthcare professionals.
So I started having to teach Qigong to healthcare professionals because they, because there was a conversation, they said, right, let, let's go. Teaching online, I cannot. honestly teach accuracy. Because even if I can demonstrate the move accurately, I'm not big enough on everybody else's screen for them to see the detail of what I'm doing, and I can't see what they're doing.
You know, at this point, the class was probably generally about 30 40 people, so it was quite a sizable group. Couldn't see it. So what's most important in that space is the intention. And if we look at what happened within Jianeng, if we look at the idea of the medicineless hospital, were the people who went to the medicineless hospital and practiced in that space able to do a hundred percent accurate form?
Is that how they got their recovery? There were people in wheelchairs, there were people with limited mobility. There were people who were exhausted, who were bed bound. We don't need to have the accuracy to, to create the effect. The accuracy is amazing at refining the practice. So every single movement that we have, the first thing is that we need the body and the mind to be connected with the movement.
That's what makes it Qigong. Then we can go on to refining the accuracy. If we only start with the accuracy, my personal feeling, and please excuse me or email me if I offend, that's not Qigong, that's just dance. And I shouldn't say just dance, I should say that's choreography. It's just a sequence of movements with the thought that moving in this way is going to actually make a difference.
So why is it called Qigong? It's called Qigong because we put our Qi with it. It's a body mind connection. So yeah, if we look at a, like a, a single movement, so when, when you push the hand out and I move back slightly, so I don't look too intimidating, that means stop, go away. I don't want you here. If you push with Shenmen, that has got a completely different sense to it.
So we can pick up all of these details and refine them within the practice. But it's a point of refinement. It isn't a rule that gives you access from my point of view. Sorry, you really hit the soapbox for me there.
So let's, let's hear some other points. Where else do you feel we need to adapt as Western teachers?
I think the idea of entirety theory is really interesting here as well. I had one of the teachers, Gao, come and stay with me. And as I understand it, Gao was the head of the editorial department at the, at the HuaXia Center.
And, it was a weird series of events that meant that he came to stay at my house. And he sat there across the table from me and he said to me, Explain entirety theory in three minutes to me. And I was like, Oh, I can't do that. It's way too complicated. And it's really deep and it's really confusing. And it's written.
And he listened to me and he smiled and he said, why do you think that? And so I pointed at, there's a book up there, which is the science of Zhineng Qigong I said, look, this book, it's so complicated. And he said, why do you think we call it the science of Qigong? I don't know. He said, we called it that so scientists would read it.
It's not, it's not complicated, but certain audiences need real complication in order to understand, in order to fit it in, in order to trust. The basic idea is very simple. So we need to find the ways of expressing the basic ideas that sit within the practice. You know, what is Huanyuan Qi? What is Yi Yuan Ti?
And the more you look around, not just within Zhineng, but also in other traditions, the more you find clues in ways of expressing the ideas. So one of the most beautiful ones that I know is the concept of E U N T. So the concept of true nature or true self, Sri Ramana Maharshi, the Indian guru, was asked about this.
And his response was, if you dig a hole, do you think you created the hole? You didn't. The hole was already there. You just took everything out of it.
Right.
And there's a description of Yi Yuan Ti. Your Yi Yuan Ti is already there. You already have it. You just keep on piling stuff on top of it so you don't notice it.
You know, as far as a simple model goes, I don't know anything that can explain it any better than that from my perspective.
But that
doesn't come from Zhineng. That's come from a parallel practice. And I think that to me, the parallel practices are really interesting. I'm a Zhineng Qigong practitioner.
But I'm a Qigong practitioner who's interested in where the other practices are around certain things. Because some of them are so much clearer than we are, and then others we are far clearer than they are. And different audiences will find those clarities in different places. So yeah, I think having the ability to understand where things are in different perspectives is really helpful in this.
And I don't think this is in any way, disrespectful towards Zhineng Qigong, because even within Zhineng Qigong as we know, every teacher, every master has a different way of expressing things. And one, one thing might click with one teacher and it might, I might never get it with another. I might've heard it a hundred times.
And just because I'm at a different state today, then it might click. So, I don't think this is, This is, in any way, taking away from Zhineng Qigong. If we use these ideas and these thoughts and these, these principles from other methods and, you know, because they're also very well thought through.
It's not. Yeah. It's yeah. So, I get that. I get that.
Yeah. Yeah. There is a piece here about should we mix systems? I mean, I've trained in I thought, well, I've spent significant time in seven different systems of qigong, and I've qualified to teach in four of those systems. And so, yeah, I was at a point that I was going, oh, I don't know which one to do.
And actually, what I started to notice was that it's not the movement itself. You know, if we look at something like taiji ball, we see the movement of taiji ball exists within snake form qigong, it exists within dragon dao yin, it exists with, you know, there's so much imagery, there's so much within it that is not taught.
But it's common to so many systems. It's not the movement that is unique. It's the idea that's unique. It's the theory that is unique within Zhineng. And as long as we are circulating around that base theory, I feel as if we're still able to support people within their Jineng practice.
Right.
Now, don't pretend that quoting an Indian guru is Zhineng.
It's not. It's just stepping out slightly and viewing it from a different perspective in order to strengthen our own understanding, in order to build our own practice. But also don't think that we, that we own the copyright on everything. As I say, if you, Taiji ball is the one I bang on about the most because I've studied that in every single system and called it a different name in every single one.
And most systems say this is the secret to our practice, which is like not a very well kept secret.
What else do you feel should be done different, you know, when you're a Western teacher teaching Western groups? Is there anything else that comes to mind that you feel is very important for people to understand?
I think one of the other things that, for me, is really fascinating is an understanding of the, underpinning philosophies with the, so, for me, Daoism is a really fascinating philosophy.
The, the movement of Buddhism through Chan Buddhism to Zen Buddhism, and the impact of that on China, and also the existence of the Confucian philosophy, which of course has impact on everything in China. and seeing how those have impacted on the, on, on the systems is really helpful. But more relevant, I think it's understanding the recent history of Qigong and understanding why Zhineng was presented in the way that it was at the point at which it was presented.
And if you look at the needs that were being addressed at that point, so this was the second resurgence of Qigong following the cultural revolution. And it was primarily, as I understand it, in order to, to address healthcare needs within China.
Right.
Which is why it became accessible. Yes. But as I also understand it, the remit of it was that it had to be health focused and it had to be scientific and accessible and, you know, it wasn't allowed to move into the spiritual space.
Now this arguably is why the issues occurred around Falun Gong and I don't want to go there. I don't know enough to comment on it in a podcast. But, what I find interesting is that. When people who we teach who are from other traditions experience Zhineng Qigong, and we ask them what it is they've experienced, they define Qigong not as a healing practice, but as a fully spiritual practice.
But the presentation of it to most people is as a healing practice and as a deeply scientific practice. Now, I think that's fascinating because What we see there is that the potential of the practice covers all bases, but the presentation of the practice within the culture at the time met the cultural need.
So what is the true nature of Zhineng? Is Jineng, is the true nature of Zhineng something that was deeply relevant to China in the 1980s and, well, the late 80s and 90s? Or is the true nature of Zhineng something deeper? My sense is that the true nature of Zhineng is something deeper. And my sense is that the way that it was taught in the, in, in China in the 90s was deeply relevant to the society at the time.
And the way that we've seen the Chinese teachers adapt it, and the way that other people work with it, speak probably more to the true nature of the center of the practice. And again, it's that piece about what is it that we're actually adapting? What is the core of the practice? And so I think that that becomes interesting and the understanding how it works, not only in China.
One of the other things I found interesting working with teachers from all around Europe and, I've got a lady from Mexico in my class at the moment who's teaching, who's talking about the way that they teach in Mexico. Every single culture would teach Qigong differently, based on the cultural needs.
And the wording that I'm, I'm hearing from other countries, I'm going, I've never heard that before. What does it mean? Tell me, please. Are any of the, you know, is anything that we do pure Zhineng Qigong or is everything that we do pure Zhineng Qigong? I don't know. I'm, I'm still trying to figure that one out.
And John, as far as I understand, you've got a very interesting workshop coming up soon that kind of touches on this topic. Please let us know what this is about.
Yeah, one of the things that has been really interesting to me is, when teachers meet on a completely level playing field. It's quite challenging because as teachers, we're not necessarily that good at being students.
But what we've got is this workshop, 19th, of July in, Schloss Buchenau. Excuse my German. I, I am learning, but I'm very slow at learning. So in, in Germany, and we're meeting as a group of teachers. We've got a framework for the weekend that we're going to explore ideas like the use of disruption in teaching, or the ability to listen more carefully to what's happening within the chief field space.
And it's Miriam, Luisa and myself are running it. And it's just an open invitation. If you're, if you're teaching and you'd like to spend time with other teachers, if you're interested in teaching and want to know what it's all about and want to come along and apply. Come along and play, but do expect to be, yeah, asked, asked to lead small groups and, yeah, expect to come along and have fun and maybe break a few rules.
I'm all about breaking rules.
I think we heard that in the podcast. So we got that. We're, we're putting a link in the show notes. So every, you know, one who is a teacher is interested and getting together with teachers, learning from each other, challenging each other. Please participate, have a look at what's offered there.
And then hopefully, you know, somehow our listeners will join you guys. I know that you're very knowledgeable about all these things. And while we were talking, many new ideas came up for, more episodes. But I think this has been a lovely to see you today, John, and, very insightful, your thoughts on that.
Many things resonate with me and many, many things make me think because I've also got my view, obviously, and you kind of opened my eyes to what you're saying and I said, h yeah, that sounds very interesting. He's got a point there. So thank you very much for sharing that with us in the community and, we will obviously leave your details in the show notes.
You're a very experienced teacher. I know you offer a lot of courses and workshops and, so there are possibilities for people to get in touch with you. to learn from you. And I can only encourage everyone to get in touch and, you know, and benefit from all that you know, and the man that you are, because as we know, ways of being is the most important in all of that.
You mentioned the word authenticity, but it's just the man that you are, that already, you know, creates a healing. and progress for people just to be in your presence. So thank you very much for joining me today.
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We will end today's episode with the Eight Verses Meditation performed by Zhineng Qigong teacher Katrien Hendrickx. Enjoy.
[Meditation]
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